34 replies to this topic

[sistersinister]

I voted "no" yesterday. I think original NPC portraits to be of good quality, and I am rather opposed to the thought of changing them, especially if the resulting change, as I have seen from existing portraits, suffers a serious drop in quality.

My personal preferences, however, are not the only reason. Considering that many players play with mods these days, there is no way the mod will work, unless you obtain permission from all mod authors. Keto, Kelsey, Saerileth, Tashia, Jon Irenicus... a long list.

Since Dorotea said "uzhas"(horror), and I rather share her feelings, I believe some or, perhaps, more than some mod authors would withhold their permission. This way, your mod will cease to be fully functional.

This, the hurt feelings of the mod creators, and the fact that your work has just begun - these facts make me believe that it is not too late, and I may yet ask you to abandon this mod.

If you are determined to go on, of course, I can do nothing about it, but I still believe it will benefit you much more in the end, if you invest your time and energy in a more serious modding project.

Please don't let your personal opinions of the Goth Genre get in the way of a modder's dream. I think it is silly and in poor taste to insult a new mod, even if it is behind your hand. I wonder what mods you have made? I can assure you as an assistant on this mod that I will be MORE than happy to keep anything you did out. We wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.
Now if you don't mind, I have to take my Gothiness and make more poor quality pictures.

[Kulyok]

I did not want to reply to this one, but to a statement put thus, an answer is necessary. Do you believe that a mod project should not be open to polite critique once it goes public? Or that only other modders have power to criticize it? My answer is no, on both accounts.

And, if you are serious about leaving alone the mods I took part in... let's see. Xan for sure, and, considering player-initiated and romance-related dialogues I have written, it will be - each and every NPC from the first game of Baldur's Gate. Thank you for your understanding.

[AnnabelleRose]

I did not want to reply to this one, but to a statement put thus, an answer is necessary. Do you believe that a mod project should not be open to polite critique once it goes public? Or that only other modders have power to criticize it? My answer is no, on both accounts.

As I have mentioned previously, everyone is entitled to their opinions and taste. They tend to be quite diffrent. Everyone reads/percieves a post's "tone" diffrently. Just as with any thread critism tends to spawn counter critism.

And, if you are serious about leaving alone the mods I took part in... let's see. Xan for sure, and, considering player-initiated and romance-related dialogues I have written, it will be - each and every NPC from the first game of Baldur's Gate. Thank you for your understanding.

Sorry if it bothers you but the characters from BG1's portraits and paperdolls will be used and are being worked on. I think the project lead of the wonderful BG1 NPC Banterpack said it best:

...I understand that the official NPcs are fair game and we need share....

[Kulyok]

Each to his own, subjective opinion, and all that-- but I'm just genuinely curious to know why Goth portraits seem to be so exciting? When True American Kelsey came out, we didn't see a major movement to patriotize all the other NPCs.

Okay, my subjective opinion only:

I've seen alternative portraits and portrait packs for Bioware\modded NPC, and while most of it is not exactly my taste, they work. Specifically Goth - I cannot say I see it working very well with BG environment, but if it was something like Quitch current avatar's level of quality, I would not complain; perhaps I would be even interested. Perhaps not.

But Baldur's Goth project - have you seen the examples? I have. I've nothing against Seifer's and Archmage Silver's, but the rest - put mildly -I do not see as the work of art. That said, tastes are different and all that, but the word "Goth"+ this particular project's quality = my negative reaction.

[AnnabelleRose]

Since I just woke up, this may not make sense. I'll probably edit this later.

It is equally in poor taste to insult a person who had voiced her objections honestly and properly. Kulyok is a wonderful writer, whom I am honored to name the valuable member of BG1NPC team and whose contributions were crucial to the timely completion of the project. The mod would have been infinetly poorer without Xan's romance or the PIDs.

I imagine SisterSinister was somewhat defensive because the mod she is working on and her art keeps getting called crap several places on this thread. If we went and started saying that you should not be working on the BG1 NPC Project because it has bad writing, I imagine the authors would do the same.

After a while it becomes "yes we get it, our mod and art is crap". Does it really need to be restated on the tread every few posts by the same person?

I haven't really looked that closely at the quality of the artwork, but I'm just having a difficult time envisaging why Minsc wearing black lipstick might come as an improvement to the game. I'd quite like to hear from one of the proponents of the mod.

Ahh, my first Sim comments. For some reason this makes me happy.

The reason Minsc wearing black lipstick improves the game for me is simple. I prefer the goth look to "normal" looks on a personal level. I don't really care for alot of the original Bioware NPC art. I was 80% happy with the original Baldur's Goth pack. Some of the portraits I thought needed a tweaking, but overall I enjoyed it (it even made me reinstall BG2).

The short answer is "The Baldur's Goth" mod improves the game because it increases the enjoyment level of a few players.

Edit: Fixed quotes. - SC

Edited by SConrad, 06 November 2005 - 02:59 PM.

[AnnabelleRose]

However, it did not dismiss the knowledge of the work done. Dismissing Kulyok's work in modding community both past and present is not an endearing defence tactics.

I would also like to point out that Kulyok's reaction is also justifiably and predictably defensive, because as I have mentioned before people who you are most likely to ruffle are the ones who have strong attachements to certain original characters. It is not accidental, that the negative feedback came from Dorotea, Kulyok and myself, who are known as devoted fans of particular existing NPCs.

Another factor, that is likely to contribute to displeasure is that a portrait pack that are more often being given a thread in a Misculaneous Mod Fora is being marketed as a serious mod.

Since I have not been able to do seperate quote for some reason, I will respond this way.

Paragraph 1 - I will say that SisterSinister does not follow the BG communites much at all, nor does she play the game often. Therefore I doubt she knew what work Kulyok had done. I assume that it was a sincere offer to exclude any NPC she has written.

Paragraph 2 - Kulyok did have the right to be defensive. I agree with that, her work was questioned and attacked. The same reason SisterSinister was defensive.

Paragraph 3 - Most portrait packs do not offer a change to the startpage, change the paperdolls to match (Plasmocat's wonderful one does this) and have a few expansion packs in the work for them. I was the one who begged requested a forum for this mod. I thought because of all the work being done on it, that it should have one. Since this is not a single person's work, and I would like to see this grow and evolve, I wanted it to have it's own forum so it would be easier for other cats to make suggestions and submit their own work for the mod.

[sistersinister]

Ashara-Many Goths believe in open-mindedness and diversity, and aspire to "free" themselves from the limitations of traditional belief systems...You do the research but you don't realize what you are reading. And as far as trying to claim they are "mallgoth" character repaints? The only thing I can say is that I am surprised that for someone so ..."obsessed" with a character, you can't be supportive of others modding in their own way. I personally hate the mall and all those that go there. I would not be caught dead at the mall, but I had to go there to get Baulder's Gate..(so go figure..I did it for MTS). But I have supported his craze over BG and I am afraid that I have become frustrated with the whole darn thing. I mean after the fifteenth reinstall, I just got tired of staring at the same freaking faces over and over. I mean each new mod that comes out, he meets with eagerness and excitement, "Look there is this new mod...." Because of this I have never finished the game. I think that I would be more inclined to play if I could stand to look at it. And since I am a Goth, I do not consider it a mockery to repaint the pics. Nope! I consider it an homage and an honor to adapt these familiar faces. And if no one likes it, then I don't care. If people do, then go MTS.
And some of these characters are very "Goth-esque" in their attitudes and interactions. I see Nalia as a rebelling young girl, who wants to save her home, but can't make herself fit in. She can't relate to others and finds it hard to function without her own little world. There is Arie. She is so Goth it hurts. Her morbid obsession with the loss of flight reminds me of the good little girl who loses her "good" status and finds herself trying to cope with the changes that brings. Imoen is a great example of a girl with secrets. Her secrets make her dark and sometimes cold, though she covers it with a fascade of conviviality and a nice perky voice. Then you have Minsc. The poor man lost his......."Witch"! He was her protector and now he throws in his lot with the PC. He is up for anything so long as evil gets it's butt kicked. Perhaps he has gone a little mad, perhaps he is just intouch with Boo in his heart...Whatever the reason, he is a great solid force with a heart of gold and a "face that ladies love". I for one know I love it more in a Goth look. That is why SimDing0, I like the repaint I did of him.

Now as far as anything else said, I reply with this final thought...
You will NEVER make one hundred percent of people happy one hundred percent of the time. I mean with that one thought remember that you all should be proud of MTS because he released his first Mod and is now working on another. Perhaps he has not reached the all-Modder-ness of others, but that was not achieved over night. The whole concept of SHS is the idea that one idea can be improved upon for the pleasure of the one improving (and hopefully others), not the idea that there are limits or outlines on what are "good" ideas. But really, besides the two of you who have posted..who's feelings have been hurt here? I am not the kind of person who goes off attacking without cause, and if other's are hurt , let them speak for themselves.

Thanks to those who have been supportive of MajorTomSawyer's efforts.

Bloody Kisses,
sistersinister

[SimDing0]

You will NEVER make one hundred percent of people happy one hundred percent of the time.

It's a damn good thing to aim for!

[SConrad]

I see this is becoming something of an interesting topic, so I thought I should add my own opinions to this.

My personal preferences, however, are not the only reason. Considering that many players play with mods these days, there is no way the mod will work, unless you obtain permission from all mod authors. Keto, Kelsey, Saerileth, Tashia, Jon Irenicus... a long list.

I believe this topic, although from a slightly different perspective is being discussed here. I believe the general question there is "is it okay for other modders to 'mod' already existant mods, just as we mod already existant games?", and as far as I've gathered, that is still being debated.

If the answer to the question is "yes", then I see no need for MTS to ask permission to distribute alternative portraits for any mod characters, just as he doesn't need permission to distribute alternative portraits for Bioware characters.

Personally, I think it is okay. I don't really see the problem with anyone proposing an alternate portrait for Hubelpot. However, I also believe that if anyone mods a mod, they add some sort of disclaimer to say that the author of the original mod is not responsible for the 'add-on'. I always have a "THIS IS NOT BIOWARE" disclaimer in my mod readme's, and I think that is the way to go, even for modded mods.

As for the subjective opinions concerning taste of portraits, I don't really think it matters. Sure, some writers may have become attached to their creation/canon character, and I totally understand that they might dislike the prospect of gothic portraits of that NPC. But, if we assume that the answer to the above question is "yes", I wouldn't really think we have an issue here.

I don't use the Baldur's Goth portraits ingame. But I fully respect that other people want them, and I think they promoted creative artwork. Those reasons were why I packaged the mod in the first place.

[sistersinister]

I believe this topic, although from a slightly different perspective is being discussed here. I believe the general question there is "is it okay for other modders to 'mod' already existant mods, just as we mod already existant games?", and as far as I've gathered, that is still being debated.

Well said. I will agree with the need to include a warning in the "read-me" portion of the mod and I will see to it that it is done is a few different languages just to get the point across..Sorry perhaps a poor attempt at humor.

Bloody Kisses,
sistersinister

Edited by sistersinister, 06 November 2005 - 03:52 PM.

[SConrad]

FYI- Kivan is not yours..dear. He Bioware's and that makes him open game.

And even if he wasn't, I would say "bring it on" anyway. But that's the subject of the discussion over on G3.

[sistersinister]

My point that was so missed was this...This whole freaking thing...SHS and G3 and COM and all the others are based on the idea of "modifying(modding)" what was aldready there. I think it is ok to change mods, because that is what this whole community is based on. Social likes or dislikes aside.

Bloody Kisses,
sistersinister:vbat:

[sistersinister]

Listen I have tried to be polite to you. I have tried to reason with you. I have tried to ignore you, but I will simply say that for most of the people I have seen on this whole "freaking" community, they embrace it as a passion, but you have "wandered" into obsession. I understand that you need something to hang onto but realize that attacking me is not how you control your world. I am a big girl and I can see there are more opinions than there are members of this community. However, I do not think that coming onto a "goth" forum and objecting to it being goth at all it meritable. Then to say that I am killing the character because I gave him black lipstick...whoopeedeedo! I tried to explain nicely that I did that because I can..(since the whole forum community is based on change) but you freaked out on me. I am trying to remain polite because I don't want to make MTS into a whipping boy about this topic. I am being civil and you attack me. Fine! Understand this... I will never respond to a post by you again once this is said. You are not in control. The world is a great big place and if you cannot accept the difference of opinions represented here, maybe you shouldn't be here. I understand and accept that this forum was about the poll "to goth or not to goth", but after I defended myself I seem to have made it into a social degradation board. For this reason I will say again and again..this place, your twisted Kivan romance, all of it is based on the principle that changing what you want to change about the GAME is acceptable.
DEAL with it.

Bloody Kisses,
sistersinister:vbat:

Edited by sistersinister, 06 November 2005 - 04:17 PM.