14 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

Lets just wait for Littiz, he'll be the one with the right answers this time.

[Littiz]

Sorry, I'm seriously out of time lately, ATM I can't check everything and explain in depth.
If you can wait a few days...
Anyway, the different methods are due to the fact that Shapeshifters cannot wear anything in the armor slot (not even if they dual), so the solution can be tailored that way for them. The solution for the rest of the druids was born as an extension of the idea

[Caedwyr]

I think there has also been some promised collaboration at some future point in time between Camdawg and Littiz to hammer out a definative shapeshifter fix tweak, as I believe there are still some things that can be improved regarding the mechanics.

[Littiz]

Eh, I think either would work fine, it will just take some time in NI.

The hardest part was to handle interactions between the possible forms. If you want to do things right, you'll have to go through some headaches
More to come, I'm still in hurry

I think there has also been some promised collaboration at some future point in time between Camdawg and Littiz to hammer out a definative shapeshifter fix tweak, as I believe there are still some things that can be improved regarding the mechanics.

Yes, there was this idea, but I got no reply to my last PMs as I think Cam has been too busy with other projects recently.
There's a base plan for a new common structure of the fix based on the existing Refinements' structure + some smart ideas/improvements from Cam.
I tried to imagine all of the possible problems beforehand (after the first experience...) and alas I did find a couple of weak points. If we solve those though, we might produce quite an impressive fix...

Edited by Littiz, 02 August 2005 - 11:20 PM.

[Littiz]

still taking my time to answer, hadn't even time to re-open the files, sorry.

[Jinnai]

Better not take to long or you'll start sounding as bad as me.

[Littiz]

Well, to face an average technical issue I need:
-A bit of free time
-The willingness to spend it digging again into the trickyness of the files.
Last two times this combo verified I had to use it to solve a bug.
I can't offer more than this kind of availability.

Anyway, trying to answer recollecting memories and without files at hand.
As I explained already, the two systems are because of items usability issues.
With shapeshifters we can abuse of that free slot (armor), and so I came up with the idea of an invisible armor doing all the job.
I can't check the unknowns you refer to right now, but chances are that they are uninfluent. Most of the in-game files are created by using existing files as templates, and various "garbage" fields carry over from one to another, even if they have no meaning in the various new applications. This applies even to modding, alas, even though I (we) try to procede as cleanly as possible when it costs a reasonable amount of time.
Of course sometimes "unknown values" are there for a reason, and it's just NI that hasn't been developed long enough to give them the right name at the right moment.
I think this isn't the case anyway.

For a generic fix you'll need to follow the second kind of mechanism, since you do not have that free item slot.
Hence, you can follow my impostation.
The re-cast effects are placed upon the paw itself. Now, since this is worse than the armor trick, I tried to move away as many effects as possible: so, in this case, I mixed the mechanism with the original shapeshifting effect - which is bugged, but still partially works: physical stats and something else (like resistances IRRC) do carry over upon shapechanging, so I used the original effect to apply these values (you'll need to create your own CRE file for this).
Other effects, like enchantments placed on the CRE, or upon items carried by the CRE, do *NOT* carry over.
So, you'll need to place them on the paw.
Here we have a big difference with the first system: you *can't* use a "While Equipped" time setting, since the paw themselves can be dispelled, and you'd lose continuity of the enchantments until the paw is reapplied (using the armor slot with Shapeshifters avoided this problem).
In this case, I use a precise amount of time, trusting the fact that the paw is reapplied at a given delay, indeed. The time setting for the enchantments is a tick longer than the re-casting delay, creating a bit of overlapping that ensures an even better continuity. Of course you'll have to avoid this little overlapping for effects that work incrementally, but most of the times you can freely apply it.

Another difficulty is with the interactions between the forms.
See, again, with the armor trick I could simply remove the armor and the whole mechanism stopped.
Having everything moved to the paws, I had to come up with something else.
This was a big problem until I remember about the Protection from Spell effect.
By using a properly placed protection from spell effect I could stop the chain of castings any time, so I just imagined to place it in the natural form spell.
This wasn't enough of course, and things became very tricky to do without doing mistakes, since you have to prevent conflicts between the forms: when you change from a form to another (which I wanted to allow without forcing to pass through the human form) applying the new paw isn't enough, since you must stop the previous chain of spells, first.
So, this is where all of those interwoven protections from spell effects are born...


Hell, hope it helps. I think you can figure out a bit better how the thing works by studying the files now.
I'm sure there were additional tricky issues, but I can't recollect them all right now, not without the files (and a problem) at hand

Edited by Littiz, 11 August 2005 - 11:44 PM.

[Littiz]

You're welcome

[Littiz]

I can't replicate your shapechanges because I can't put into effect the constantly reappearing claws (because I can't use the 'protection from spell' effect on a spell of my own making (because I'm on a Mac and can only use NI for this stuff)).

Uh?
I did the whole shapeshifting fix with NI...

But as I was implementing this, I came upon an idea to remedy the possibility of claws being dispelled: instead of a simple 'create item' effect to create the claws, I will use a 'cast spell' effect to cast a separate spell, which in turn will create the claws. The benefit being that the 'cast spell' effect asks what level the spell should be cast at. So if it casts at 10 levels higher than the highest NPC dispeller (say, at level 50), there should only ever be a 1% chance of the claws being dispelled.

Actually, this is what I did already in the generic (non-shapeshifter) version of the fix (though I don't recall ATM the exact value I used as level). I didn't actually try a true statistical analysis, but the paws keep getting dispelled quite often, to my memory (I think the hard-coded bug is messing things up).
Anyway, I think the minimum might be 5% in this case, plus, the random engine in BG2 doesn't appear perfectly well done... all in all, I don't think we could trust "low" chances. Plus, there are mods and modders, and spells with high level settings...

Right? Am I missing something, or will that actually work? And, now I'm thinking I can lump all the effects (animation change, modified STR DEX & CON, immunities, regeneration, etc) into the claws themselves... so even if they are dispelled, the whole shebang will be dispelled. Thus the awkward situation of being in the shape of a bear but wielding a quarterstaff would not happen - it would be an all-or-nothing deal.

Maybe not a big deal, but this would leave a bit of chaos with the natural form innates and such, anyway. This is one of the theorical problems I identified with the possible common shapeshifting fix Camdawg and I might realize (for that case I'd have a solution, but not as clean as I'd want it).
Anyway, such issues may not be of interest to you, if you're after a personal version of the fix