53 replies to this topic

[jcompton]

Actually, virtually everybody would have absolutely no way of knowing another individual was benefitting from a charisma bonus, unless the enchantment giving it to them was in some way hampered by a complete giveaway like audiovisual feedback. And there's no real evidence that any of the charisma-enhancing items in the game are so afflicted.

[SimDing0]

What says charisma is looks?

[Feanor]

What says charisma is looks?

The description of some items in BG2 like Thracie's Plate, Orc Leather, Ring og Human Influence. And many such items from AD&D.

[Fantasy]

I hope that there is a sharp retort among PC's options when the lover wannable tells her to drop that magical trinket that she obviously uses to ensorcel him. Something like: 'And if you were particulary enamored of my eyes, would you ask me to put them out for you, m'lord, so you could decide if you loved me without them.'

Heh, he actually doesn't mention being attracted to her, or that he thinks that item is the cause of this, during the conversation. But it's indeed possible to not just give 'nice' responses during the conversations, and in many instances you can do this without ending the romance.

Knowing how stupid the human race is we can assume that some NPCs will treat charisma increasing magic items like make-up or hair dying...
Most of those pathetic beings we call humans don't mind that their potential partners fake their looks .
I think that low-wisdom characters would treat magically increased charisma as true one.

That could be indeed. And I don't know if you consider 14 to be high enough to not treat it like that, cause that's his current wisdom.

Actually, virtually everybody would have absolutely no way of knowing another individual was benefitting from a charisma bonus, unless the enchantment giving it to them was in some way hampered by a complete giveaway like audiovisual feedback. And there's no real evidence that any of the charisma-enhancing items in the game are so afflicted.

I agree with you there.

It's not that he can notice/recognise charisma increasing items, it's just that he can recognise magical items when he's near them.

This is actually the only time it's implemented in a conversation, since usually he won't talk about it or let anyone know this. So it's not like I'm using it as an auto-detection or whatever. It's somewhat difficult to explain it without giving the full background of him, but I'm sure that's not really a good idea in this topic.

So I'll just mention that he somehow 'sees' the magic that is captured inside magical items. He needs to be able to see this as well, but that's a completely different story. Most of the time he'll ignore that magic and those items, but if he doesn't then he'll get some more knowledge about the kind of magic inside it. It works a bit in the same way as lore works, but with some differences that don't really matter for this discussion.

So instead of noticing it on the outside of the PC, he'll be aware that she carries magical items. At first he won't pay attention to it, but when he becomes attracted to her, his focus will on her more often, even without him really realising this at first.

Her attractiveness draws his attention to her, and the magical items are a constant interest to him as well. Imagine his surprise when he starts to realise that (some) of those magical items contain magic that is meant to attract, persuade and make it harder to resist the one who uses them.

He'll think about it for some time, and (when he realises he really can't get her out of his mind) he'll want to find out if she's willing to give those items to him. He partly wants to know this so see if she's attracting him (or if the magic does that) and partly to see if she's strong enough to be separated from magical items for a while.

If she's not even willing to give them to a party member (while she can keep an eye on it and he promises to not do anything with them), then he knows she won't be able to resist the lure of stronger magical items either. Which is rather important for him to know. But that too is a different story.

What says charisma is looks?

The description of some items in BG2 like Thracie's Plate, Orc Leather, Ring og Human Influence. And many such items from AD&D.

In my opinion it's not only about looks. It's also persuasion, something that makes others listen to you even if they don't really want to, something that set you apart from others, something that helps you to influence the moods and thoughts of the other, something that can't really be described, but that everyone knows you have it.

After all, if it was only about good looks, then why is it so important to paladins? I don't think that only very good-looking persons can become paladins.

And just because someone is very attractive doesn?t mean that people listen to that person. They might *pretend* to be listening, but if they just stare at you without hearing your words, then you don't really get far either.

Greetings,

Fantasy

[SimDing0]

      The description of some items in BG2 like Thracie's Plate, Orc Leather, Ring og Human Influence. And many such items from AD&D. 

The game describes it as follows:
~CHARISMA: Charisma measures a character's persuasiveness, personal magnetism, and ability to lead. This ability is important to the druid, bard and paladin.
Minimum: <MINIMUM>
Maximum: <MAXIMUM>~

Incidentally, none of those item descriptions you mention state that it's looks, and T'rahcie's Plate is the only one which comes remotely close to implying such a thing. (~This armor's curse sickened Libol and hideously disfigured him, and his wife fled from him in disgust.~)

So, could you quote your source now?

[Delight]

Heh.
This means that the looks of D&D characters are not described by stats .
And if they aren't described by stats, any player can arbitrary create a gorgeous character just by stating that his/her character is gorgeous .

[Ghreyfain]

I'm sure magical items could work both ways. A Hat of Leadership increases your charisma by making you a more inspiring leader. A Breastplate of Cleavage increases your charisma by making you more visually appealing.

I think the Nymph Cloak was supposedly commissioned by some noblewoman or other to make her husband seem less gross in general, right? I always seemed to read it as him acting less like a slob than actually looking prettier.

[Imrahil]

      The description of some items in BG2 like Thracie's Plate, Orc Leather, Ring og Human Influence. And many such items from AD&D. 

The game describes it as follows:
~CHARISMA: Charisma measures a character's persuasiveness, personal magnetism, and ability to lead. This ability is important to the druid, bard and paladin.
Minimum: <MINIMUM>
Maximum: <MAXIMUM>~

Incidentally, none of those item descriptions you mention state that it's looks, and T'rahcie's Plate is the only one which comes remotely close to implying such a thing. (~This armor's curse sickened Libol and hideously disfigured him, and his wife fled from him in disgust.~)

Orc Leather: "...Finger bones, ribs, and skulls cover the armor, acting much like the traditional metal rivets. Powerful orcish enchantments give the armor special resistance to missile attacks, but the repulsiveness of the armor reduces the wearers charisma."

Combined with T'rahcie's Plate, I'm on the side that says that Charisma is *in part* looks.

I think the Nymph Cloak was supposedly commissioned by some noblewoman or other to make her husband seem less gross in general, right? I always seemed to read it as him acting less like a slob than actually looking prettier

Nymph Cloak: "The fabled Nymph Cloak is renowned for its ability to increase the Charisma of even the most surly dwarf. A Cormyrean noble hoping to make her politically convenient marriage more palatable apparently went to great expense to obtain one for herself and another for her husband. This cloak may be used to charm one person, once per day." (just an FYI, not really all that relevant, just a copy-paste for curiosity's sake)


I'm of the opinion that Charisma is *mostly* leadership & persuasiveness. It also encompasses looks, given that Comeliness is not an official stat.

My main problem with MOD NPC's that have Charisma requirements is that, in the dialogues of the NPC, all they ever talk about is how HAWT CHARNAME is. There's rarely a reference to how inspiring in battle he/she is or how deftly that last in-party bickering was handled.

I don't like exceptional stat requirements in any stat, as I've stated, but I particularly don't like Charisma requirements when they are defended by stating that Charisma is more than looks, but supported by dialogues which focus solely on looks.

- Imrahil

[Fantasy]

I'm of the opinion that Charisma is *mostly* leadership & persuasiveness.  It also encompasses looks, given that Comeliness is not an official stat.

My main problem with MOD NPC's that have Charisma requirements is that, in the dialogues of the NPC, all they ever talk about is how HAWT CHARNAME is.  There's rarely a reference to how inspiring in battle he/she is or how deftly that last in-party bickering was handled.

I don't like exceptional stat requirements in any stat, as I've stated, but I particularly don't like Charisma requirements when they are defended by stating that Charisma is more than looks, but supported by dialogues which focus solely on looks.

- Imrahil

I can agree with you there, especially since I don't think it's all looks, but also persuasiveness and such.

So if a mod assumes it only means that my character with high charisma looks stunning, while my character with a low/average charisma is ugly, then this really annoys me. Besides, there's always some beauty in the person (both on the inside as the outside) so that shouldn't be a problem for a romance.

I only use it to help him realise that just because <charname> is of a completely different race, he's still too attracted to her and too impressed by her to not make a move.

Greetings,

Fantasy

[Feanor]

That could be indeed. And I don't know if you consider 14 to be high enough to not treat it like that, cause that's his current wisdom.



It's not that he can notice/recognise charisma increasing items, it's just that he can recognise magical items when he's near them.

This is actually the only time it's implemented in a conversation, since usually he won't talk about it or let anyone know this. So it's not like I'm using it as an auto-detection or whatever. It's somewhat difficult to explain it without giving the full background of him, but I'm sure that's not really a good idea in this topic.

So I'll just mention that he somehow 'sees' the magic that is captured inside magical items. He needs to be able to see this as well, but that's a completely different story. Most of the time he'll ignore that magic and those items, but if he doesn't then he'll get some more knowledge about the kind of magic inside it. It works a bit in the same way as lore works, but with some differences that don't really matter for this discussion.

So instead of noticing it on the outside of the PC, he'll be aware that she carries magical items. At first he won't pay attention to it, but when he becomes attracted to her, his focus will on her more often, even without him really realising this at first.

Her attractiveness draws his attention to her, and the magical items are a constant interest to him as well. Imagine his surprise when he starts to realise that (some) of those magical items contain magic that is meant to attract, persuade and make it harder to resist the one who uses them.

To help Fantasy a little : skilled mages have the ability to detect magic. It's not hard at all.

Incidentally, none of those item descriptions you mention state that it's looks, and T'rahcie's Plate is the only one which comes remotely close to implying such a thing. (~This armor's curse sickened Libol and hideously disfigured him, and his wife fled from him in disgust.~)

So, could you quote your source now?

Orc Leather says something about repulsiveness.
And, if you insist, I could come with 20 samples from AD&D where loss of charisma leads to the character being disfigured.

[SimDing0]

I'm of the opinion that Charisma is *mostly* leadership & persuasiveness.  It also encompasses looks, given that Comeliness is not an official stat.

And I'd be inclined to say that you can create a character and say that he/she has low charisma but is still fairly attractive, in the same way that you might create a high-DEX character who you decide is fairly fat. While charisma may well reflect appearance in part, if we assume that stats *must* describe every aspect of your PC, character creation rapidly becomes a joke. Just because there's no eye-colour stat doesn't mean my PC doesn't have eyes.

[SimDing0]

Orc Leather says something about repulsiveness. tongue.gif

And you're bound to be repulsive to anybody if you're wearing something like that. That doesn't mean you don't have a well-toned body and perfect features.

And, if you insist, I could come with 20 samples from AD&D where loss of charisma leads to the character being disfigured.

D&D sources are largely irrelevant in a game which isn't strictly PnP-based. The game itself tells you what charisma is in no uncertain terms.

[Feanor]

[quote name='SimDing0' date='Jul 27 2005, 01:33 PM'][quote]Orc Leather says something about repulsiveness. tongue.gif[/quote]
And you're bound to be repulsive to anybody if you're wearing something like that. That doesn't mean you don't have a well-toned body and perfect features.

[right][/right]
[/quote]

Yeah, and that's why your charisma is restored if you take that armor off.

[quote]And, if you insist, I could come with 20 samples from AD&D where loss of charisma leads to the character being disfigured.[/quote]
D&D sources are largely irrelevant in a game which isn't strictly PnP-based. The game itself tells you what charisma is in no uncertain terms.
[QUOTE]

Yes, but BG2 does not offer enough material and proofs for many discussions, so sometimes I have no choice.