53 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

So, the question is clear. Since some mods have introduced or are planning to introduce stats requirement in their romances (be careful, I have not said "in the original romances" ; it's about custom NPC's) - especially charisma -, what is the opinion of the skilled modders around here on this issue ? Personally, I don't like it at all, since the IE is totally incapable of handling such a requirement and implementing it leads to a lot of ridiculous situations (too many to mention).

[Andyr]

I think it depends on the NPC.

The IE can let you check stats fine, by the way...

[hlidskialf]

It's easy as hell to code, and not problematic IMHO. Hell, it'd be 2 minutes work to retro-code the original romances to reflect stat mins as well. Of course the argument on what the stat requirements would be would take years, but at least part of it would be easy.

[Deathsangel]

If I am correct the original romances also check stats right? Don't they have an Int, Cha and race check? Extremely low ones like Int 8 and Cha 9 or so, but I thought they do have them.

[Feanor]

If I am correct the original romances also check stats right? Don't they have an Int, Cha and race check? Extremely low ones like Int 8 and Cha 9 or so, but I thought they do have them.

No, only racial restrictions.

It's easy as hell to code, and not problematic IMHO. Hell, it'd be 2 minutes work to retro-code the original romances to reflect stat mins as well. Of course the argument on what the stat requirements would be would take years, but at least part of it would be easy.

Not quite. Yes, it is very easy to set a stat check, but the problem is that BG2 has just too many ways to alter stats. For instance : a romance which requires a Int check will die at the first encounter with a group of mindflayers. The same for other stats.

[Rabain]

If your romancable NPC meets a non-qualifying PC does he/she comment on this in dialogue?

If not the player has no way of knowing if their PC is going to get the romance unless they look at the code or it is stated clearly in the readme and they then tailor their PC stats to get the romance before they start a game.

[Imrahil]

I'm pretty sure that Feanor is referring more to "Stat Requirements: Are They A Good Idea?" & not so much to "Stat Requirements: Can They Be Handled by the Infinity Engine?" (if you need confirmation, click on his .sig, which apparently refers to an irritating foreign substance which, when covered by a mollusc's saliva for a period of time, has a small chance of becoming a valuable human commodity ).

Regarding Stat Requirements: Are They A Good Idea? I tend to lean more toward the Weimer side. I can see some very minimal requirements being OK (e.g. Int 7, Wis 9, etc.), but I'm pretty much opposed to requiring exceptional (15+) stats to initiate a romance.

The game is... a game. Simple enough. Sacrifices of realism often must be made to accomodate the engine. Sure, Korgan, in real life, wouldn't wait around the CC for 2+ months in case you happen by, but to further the game, he does. Yes, Viconia probably would only want someone who was exceptionally strong & charismatic, but to further the game, she doesn't. Odds are, if you spent a month doing side quests, Irenicus would accomplish his goals & you'd be SOL, but he waits for you, to further the game.

Similarly, an NPC might have ridiculously high & inexplicable standards, but, to further the game, he/she probably shouldn't, & most CHARNAME's should be able to experience any dialogues he/she wants to. IMO, of course.

- Imrahil

[Feanor]

It will not die. The romance match is set only once and does not retcon (unless you script it to).

It depends on the solution chosen by the modder. There can be only a first check for the romance to start and the PC can cheat using stat enhancing items, potions or spells. If the modder wants to make sure there can't be such cheating and makes sure that the romance dies when you don't meet the stat requirement anymore, this generates the problems already mentioned.

[Imrahil]

If it is a particular mod, I think you need to forward your complaints to a particular modder. If it is not a particular mod, just select the mods that follow Weimer's rule of being wide-open.

Ah, the eternal question of whether or not "If you don't like it, don't play it!" is an appropriate response...

What does Infinity Engine have to do with it? Engine prohibits you from having 7 NPCs in the party or dual-classing elves.

You are speaking of plot progression, I think.

It's probably just quibbling over semantics, but the fact that Korgan can't go off & do his own quests or meet up with a different party or run out of money to pay his tab is more of an engine limitation, I believe. Besides that, though, it *also* makes it easier & generally more fun for the player (especially one who doesn't replay the game dozens of times) to have Korgan available at any time, even if that is not the most realistic approach.

While it is essential for the game mechaniques (ie for the game to proceed) that Irenicus waits for you in the Spellhold (though even that can be altered), it is non-essential that every PC could romance Viconia. It does not 'further the game'. So, I fail to see a problem if she dismisses an ugly weakling of a PC in full accordance with her personality.

It would be realistic to only be able to recruit Viconia if you go to the Gov't District at Hour X on Day Y. Before that, she's not there. After that, she's been burned. Allowing the player to pick her up at any time does further the game, by giving the player more options. If she required a Str 14+, Cha 15+ CHARNAME, that might be more realistic as well, but not having those restrictions gives the player more options & adds to the enjoyment (thus "furthering the game"). Just because something can be justified doesn't mean it should be implemented.

- Imrahil

[hlidskialf]

It will not die. The romance match is set only once and does not retcon (unless you script it to).

It depends on the solution chosen by the modder. There can be only a first check for the romance to start and the PC can cheat using stat enhancing items, potions or spells. If the modder wants to make sure there can't be such cheating and makes sure that the romance dies when you don't meet the stat requirement anymore, this generates the problems already mentioned.

Since the original NPC romances and all mods I've seen also use this method I think I was pretty close to correct. The only mods I know of that make conditional checks after starting the romance are dependant on alignment, not stats. Checks run in the Baldur.bcs script (as the originals) happen immediately on game start, so there's no chance to "cheat".
However, scripting it actively as you suggested would indeed be a nightmare.

[Miss Sakaki]

For me, I feel that stats restrictions' appropriateness depends on the romance in question.

For instance, it would make more sense for Viconia's romance to be stat-restricted, because from her lovetalks it seems that she is a picky gal. (On a sidenote, I like that her Flirt Pack takes this into account.) However, Aerie is the sort of person to not care for such things, and would care more about the PC's reputation and how he treats her.

EDIT: also this distinction can apply to modded romances. For instance, Kelsey is more concerned with reputation and alignment so a stat restriction would perhaps not work with the story the mod is telling. On the other hand, Edwin is an intellectual snob and therefore it makes sense that he would not be interested in a girl who didn't measure up in the intelligence department.

Edited by Miss Sakaki, 20 July 2005 - 11:35 AM.

[Imrahil]

Ah, the eternal question of whether or not "If you don't like it, don't play it!" is an appropriate response..

Uhm, certainly a better one than: "You are going to play it and enjoy it, mister! *Swoosh!* *Slap* Are you enjoing it *slap* Are you BLOODY enjoying it?!!!"

and, from another side of the spectrum:

"Heed my critisism *slap* I do not care what you think, but HEED MY CRITISISM!* *slap*, *slap*. The world will end if you do not heed my words!"

I doubt that you turn a modder into your slave or indeed have some sort of a mind domination spell, you are going to get a "Now I see that my deeply beloved and years-in-the making concept needs to be drastically changed. I am so inferrior to you... and so greatful for pointing out my infinite stupidity. I am going to refuse food, drink anmd sleep until the mod is made entirely to your satisfaction. Right away, O wise and omnipotent Master! Right awaaaay!" in reply to every and all points on which you disagreed with him/her.

Wow. I think I'll just sit here in stunned silence for a bit...

...and then point out that I'm simply offering my opinion & giving my reasoning to a question that was asked (I'm guessing this is a bit of spillover from our Kivan discussion, but if you recall, you asked me to read through the dialogue files & give my specific opinions, which I did).

Using the current variant of IE it is entirely possible to make Korgan available only for a short period of time ; have scenes added that will show his quest aftermath, add an encounter with him and his new gang if PC was too slow on his quest. Engine does not place any limitations whatsoever on this. Writing and coding time of BioWARE guys does (or their desire to make the game more linear etc).

Technically that would be simulating the effects of the events I described rather than having them actually occur, but since it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand I'll simply concede the point & not use the word "engine".

On another hand, certain players will be mightily irritated that Viconia lusts after their PC with CHR 7 or at having an option to talk cohesively and even wittily if their intelligence is 3. So what adds enjoyement for you as a player might substruct it from someone else's.

If you scroll back up a few posts, I did say that certain minimums make sense to me. It's requiring exceptional stats that I, in my own personal opinion, with no expectation that others must or will agree, am not so much in favor of.

If you ever read DA boards, for example, there is population of players that want dialogue, events, fights as realistic as possible to excrutiating detail, and there are those who want it as streamlined as possible.

The mere existance of people who hold a different view is not very persuasive. Their reasoning might be, but their existence isn't.

- Imrahil

[Imrahil]

Ironically, I had a player who was no less categorical than you in her statement that 'Kivan now never shuts up' after I added interjections, following your categorical statement that 'any good mod should have lots and lots of interjections/Kivan has nothing to say'.

It's not really ironic. If someone says "this meal needs salt", even that person may balk if you add too much salt (incidently, I'm pretty sure that person's a he, despite the female avatar portrait).

The mere existence of people who hold a different view is not very persuasive.  Their reasoning might be, but their existence isn't.

I find it a bit funny that this statement contradicts your earlier idea that 'because it can be justified it does not have to be implemented."

I don't see the contradiction - the reasoning may be sound, it may not. Either way, it doesn't mean something must be implemented.

Relax. You do not have to win some sort of an argument, no matter how.

I think you may be reading the wrong emotions into my posts. Try less "irritated & defensive", more "amused & a little bewildered" & you'll be closer. Maybe I don't use enough emoticons.

- Imrahil

[Delight]

Personally I prefer romances with stat requirements.
I think that playing a character with CHA 18 and Int above 16 should be rewarded with better experience than playing a subhuman.

Edited by Delight, 20 July 2005 - 05:30 PM.

[Sir Kalthorine]

While I am not a huge fan of stat requirements for initiation of a romance, I do feel that stat checks can have an important role in how an NPC romance mod is experienced - particularly when it comes to adding a little something in the way of potential replay value. Internal stat checks within NPC dialogues and banters (specifically INT, WIS and CHA checks) can give pleasing extra insight into a character - a nice surprise for players who find that their high intelligence Mage has different things to say to the NPC than their high wisdom cleric, leading to some new revelations about the NPC's nature, past or abilities. Provided this is not overdone, it can be a rewarding internal extra-flavour "Easter Egg" for players.