I can't believe no one ahs modded this yet. This is one of the most complained-of parts of the game: that the developers squeezed so many big quests into chapter 2, and tacitly encourage you to spend so much time adventuring and money buying cool magic items, when you're supposed to be so worried about Imoen. It really screws up the whole shebang -- a huge amount of non-linear questing added into a very linear game with an extremely urgent mission.
Players currently have two options:
1) heed that urgency and skip a lot of the Athkatla quests (why would you ever bother running around for Sir Sarles when Immy is being tortured?); but this means missing out on a lot of the game's content, as well as magic goodies and XP and power that can help you defeat Irenicus.
2) just kind of ignore the urgency in your head, and play lots of the game. This allows you to play through all the areas and situations (the developers did, after all, spend a lot of time and effort making them), but basically kills your suspension of disbelief, making it all a bit less fun.
The solution would seem simple: remove the urgency in-game, by making it seem almost-but-not-quite impossible to recruit the shadow-thieves' help. Say something like "A ship will have to be chartered to travel to far-off, pirate-infested waters. It will cost at least $75,000, and that will ahve to come straight from you. Perhaps if you prove yourselves to us in a major way we'd consider kicking in part; or maybe if you try to get in the good graces of the Cowled Wizards they can help you. But for now I suggest you go find a couple dragons to slay, or something."
Then trigger chapter 3 by something other than money -- level, or # of major quests completed, or something. "The guild war has accelerated faster than [the Shadow Thieves or Bodhi] expected; if you ever want to see Imoen again you'll lend a hand NOW." And off you go.
I have neither the time nor the skills to do this; I'm just saying it would make things better.
(maybe also give a bit of a breather after getting out of the underdark... don't tell right away that Bodhi has the Rynn Lanthorn, instead give the characters some time to wander aimlessly, ie finish up other quests/check out WK. (Maybe even add a (false) rumor that the RL is at WK, planted by the Helmites there to lure you.))
stoopid $15,000 requirement
Started by
-silas-
, Jul 11 2005 01:16 PM
16 replies to this topic
#2
SimDing0
-
- Member
- 1654 posts
GROUP ICON
Posted 11 July 2005 - 01:18 PM
One of TPT's functions will be increasing the gold required to rescue Imoen.
#3
Caedwyr
-
- Member
- 962 posts
Wraith Editor
Posted 11 July 2005 - 08:17 PM
I always spend all my money on potions of master thievery, go around and rob all the merchants, townspeople, and whoever I can lay my hands on and sell all of it to the fences. I can quickly raise the amount of cash I need to continue the plot, can finance a few gear upgrades, and get the added bonus of heading to spellhold in only a few days instead of weeks. This makes the subesquent material a bit more challenging, but that just adds to the fun.
"Knowledge is Power. Power Corrupts. Study Hard. Be Evil." - Ferret
PnP Celestials
Geomantic Sorcerer Kit
PnP Celestials
Geomantic Sorcerer Kit
#4
-silas-
-silas-
-
- Guest
Posted 11 July 2005 - 10:26 PM
The only problem with raising the $$ requirement is that it's money down the toilet; you can't use it to buy cool stuff. (... Which wouldn't be too big a problem, except for the somewhat senseless decisions made in terms of which items are for sale and which are found in treasure.) I see why, for story reasons, the shadow thieves need to charge you lots of money; the main problem is that that doesn't translate well for the player of the computer game. Ch. 3 really should be triggered by something else -- XP, game days gone by, flags set for completed quests, whatever.
#5
TruePurple
-
- Member
- 46 posts
Posted 12 July 2005 - 08:34 AM
Days gone by seems to be the best solution. That really gives you the sensation that its actually a urgent matter. Maybe the dialogue could be edited and mention of how many days one has put in there with some reason.
On the day before last you could get a urgent message that time is almost out. If you fail to get the money and get there before time is out then this could effect storyline.
Lastly the clock starting when she is kidnapped.
Actually allot of quests could use a timeline. Time when the quest becomes available and time when its too late. Instead of everything waiting for you. Such would certainly make whether to rest or not a more interesting choice.
On the day before last you could get a urgent message that time is almost out. If you fail to get the money and get there before time is out then this could effect storyline.
Lastly the clock starting when she is kidnapped.
Actually allot of quests could use a timeline. Time when the quest becomes available and time when its too late. Instead of everything waiting for you. Such would certainly make whether to rest or not a more interesting choice.
Edited by TruePurple, 12 July 2005 - 12:14 PM.
#6
jester
-
- Member
- 1476 posts
biased bystander
Posted 12 July 2005 - 01:26 PM
One of TPT's functions will be increasing the gold required to rescue Imoen.
Actually I would need the stupid requirement removed to rescue her at all. This is a very cheap breadcrumbs plot device to nudge me on the right track, but everybody else I meet shouts 'urgent!' too. If suspension of disbelieve is anything to go by, it would require the following quests to be not available anymore after the player took too long:
-Imoen (partly fried, but we wouldn't know this until it is too late)
- Umar Hills (Perhaps taken over by the Shade Lord if he is not that James Bond bad guy type who chickens out at the final opportunity)
- Trademeet overrun by animals and/or Shadow Druids (Cernd got his head chopped off after a 'fair' trial)
- The only things left of the D'Arnise family are horrible tales of slaughter and madness as the last heir led a final desperate assault on the castle with only a handful of guards heavily outnumbered.
The last two being an ongoing assault should at least be accounted for.
-Firkraag is probably the only one who would wait as he wants to meet ze bigge bhaalspawne in person.
"It's 106 miles to Arroyo, we got a full fusion cell, half a pack of RadAway, it's midnight, and I'm wearing a 50-year old Vault 13 Jumpsuit. Let's hit it!" -The Chosen One
Free your mind
Free your mind
#7
-silas-
-silas-
-
- Guest
Posted 12 July 2005 - 02:08 PM
My main point is, for purposes of maintaining suspension of disbelief, it doesn't really matter how things are triggered behind the scenes. Even if you kept ch. 3 triggered by obtaining $15,000, you could make the game better and better support the player's suspension of disbelief by changing a few lines of Gaelan Bayle's dialog, by claiming to have a huge requirement like $100k, and then cutting things short with a line like "The rival guild has made their move sooner than we anticipated; we're willing to help you for only $15k if you lend a hand right now."
Note that this is exactly what happens in the stock game; they just don't do a good enough job of it. How do the Shadow Thieves know when you have $15,000 anyway? I know they're keeping tabs on you, but are they sneaking into your room to count your gold? Do they know beforehand how much is in Firkraag's stash? At the very least, they should wait until you have the stated $20,000 and then only charge you $15,000, giving you a bit more breathing room to go on quests and also allowing you to go on a bit of a spending spree to gear up for the fight against Bodhi. Even better, the initial (false) requirement should additionally be raised; and for best gameplay the real trigger should be something other than money raised.
Gaelan Bayle doesn't have to say it's a different trigger; he can still claim it's money-related. But the behind-the-scenes scripting need not match Gaelan's words. Personally I think either XP (it would create some uniformity in how powerful you are when you go to Spellhold) or completed-quest flags (it would enhance replayability by letting you go through more than one but less than all quests) would be best. But days gone by would be fine too. Point is, the player doesn't have to know which one it is. Heck, maybe even add some scripting to have the game choose randomly from among these three things, just to keep players off-balance.
Note that this is exactly what happens in the stock game; they just don't do a good enough job of it. How do the Shadow Thieves know when you have $15,000 anyway? I know they're keeping tabs on you, but are they sneaking into your room to count your gold? Do they know beforehand how much is in Firkraag's stash? At the very least, they should wait until you have the stated $20,000 and then only charge you $15,000, giving you a bit more breathing room to go on quests and also allowing you to go on a bit of a spending spree to gear up for the fight against Bodhi. Even better, the initial (false) requirement should additionally be raised; and for best gameplay the real trigger should be something other than money raised.
Gaelan Bayle doesn't have to say it's a different trigger; he can still claim it's money-related. But the behind-the-scenes scripting need not match Gaelan's words. Personally I think either XP (it would create some uniformity in how powerful you are when you go to Spellhold) or completed-quest flags (it would enhance replayability by letting you go through more than one but less than all quests) would be best. But days gone by would be fine too. Point is, the player doesn't have to know which one it is. Heck, maybe even add some scripting to have the game choose randomly from among these three things, just to keep players off-balance.
#8
-silas-
-silas-
-
- Guest
Posted 12 July 2005 - 02:10 PM
I agree that having the character of quests change depending on how fast a player gets to them would be cool. You could make Immy's intelligence (and thus wizard abilities) decline until she no longer becomes an available NPC; or do any of the other things jester mentioned. Have two different versions of each quest and play one or the other depending on the timing. That would go a long way toward making BG2 a real RPG, instead of just a strategic combat game in an RPG's clothing.
But that would have no effect on suspension of disbelief. I think it's also fine to have it seem that the PC got there just in the nick of time, as long as there's an in-game explanation of how and why this occurred.
I think most of the quests do a fine job of providing such an explanation; but the $15,000 ch. 3 trigger does not. That's the whole point.
But that would have no effect on suspension of disbelief. I think it's also fine to have it seem that the PC got there just in the nick of time, as long as there's an in-game explanation of how and why this occurred.
I think most of the quests do a fine job of providing such an explanation; but the $15,000 ch. 3 trigger does not. That's the whole point.
#9
Hendryk
-
- Member
- 873 posts
Posted 12 July 2005 - 04:46 PM
The PC isn't the only adventurer in Amn. If a quest is deferred too long, another group could take it up and succeed. The other group (doing the Unseeing Eye, DeArnise Keep, Umar Hills and/or Trademeet maybe) would be of opposite alignment to the PC, higher level, better equipped and completely obnoxious about succeeding at something which the PC hadn't dared to attempt.
As for Immy, another choice (since she somehow gains a million + XP in Spellhold as is) would be to make her more powerful, the longer the PC waits to rescue her but also either TN or NE. In either of those alignments she wouldn't be the chirpy, faithful "little sister" anymore. In fact, NE Imoen might do something like turn coat and fight the party along side Bodhi in the Spellhold dungeon, having been converted into a willing bait for the PC by her kind host.
As for Immy, another choice (since she somehow gains a million + XP in Spellhold as is) would be to make her more powerful, the longer the PC waits to rescue her but also either TN or NE. In either of those alignments she wouldn't be the chirpy, faithful "little sister" anymore. In fact, NE Imoen might do something like turn coat and fight the party along side Bodhi in the Spellhold dungeon, having been converted into a willing bait for the PC by her kind host.
Ready. Fire. Aim.
#10
TruePurple
-
- Member
- 46 posts
Posted 12 July 2005 - 05:23 PM
Completed quests or XP triggers would be no better imo.
It should be time and not only should some quests expire like Hendryk and Jester said but some quests shouldn't even be doable till a certain amount of time has past, imo. Though that would be some work so might need to be limited few at first.
Time dependent quests means very interesting time management factors in the game, especially when it comes to sleep. Would make for a real fun challenge.
It should be time and not only should some quests expire like Hendryk and Jester said but some quests shouldn't even be doable till a certain amount of time has past, imo. Though that would be some work so might need to be limited few at first.
Time dependent quests means very interesting time management factors in the game, especially when it comes to sleep. Would make for a real fun challenge.
Edited by TruePurple, 12 July 2005 - 05:26 PM.
#11
-silas-
-silas-
-
- Guest
Posted 12 July 2005 - 10:30 PM
In terms of other quests: you're thinking about it the wrong way. Not everything has to start from the moment you wake up in Jon's dungeon. If you don't get around to going to Trademeet until day 75 in ch. 6, then in that game, in that universe, the animals didn't start attacking until day 60 or so. It may be different when you play the game again, but for purposes of suspension of disbelief each time through is a closed universe; if your PC just happens to get to every quest before another adventuring group does, every time through the game, well, it may be unlikely and not ideal, but it's explainable. It's not a good story, bu it's a consistent story.
The $15k requirement, on the other hand, actively works against your suspension of disbelief. If I find myself with $11k, and I know the reward for the upcoming quest is more than $4k, and I don't want to go to Spellhold yet, I'll go burn some cash to stay under the limit. I shouldn't have to fight the game like that.
I'm not saying the ideas about other quests aren't very good ones -- they are. But they're out of consideration here for two reasons: 1) they're beyond the scope of this thread (certainly they deserve their own); and 2) they're completely unworkable. You're talking about rewriting and recoding huge portions of the game; whereas to deal with the $15k problem all that needs changin is a single scripted trigger and a few lines of dialog.
The $15k requirement, on the other hand, actively works against your suspension of disbelief. If I find myself with $11k, and I know the reward for the upcoming quest is more than $4k, and I don't want to go to Spellhold yet, I'll go burn some cash to stay under the limit. I shouldn't have to fight the game like that.
I'm not saying the ideas about other quests aren't very good ones -- they are. But they're out of consideration here for two reasons: 1) they're beyond the scope of this thread (certainly they deserve their own); and 2) they're completely unworkable. You're talking about rewriting and recoding huge portions of the game; whereas to deal with the $15k problem all that needs changin is a single scripted trigger and a few lines of dialog.
#12
Shadowhawke
-
- Modder
-
- 1568 posts
Starlight Seeker
Posted 13 July 2005 - 04:48 AM
All of these ideas are very interesting. I was wondering, though, should we kind of view these quests as critical and non-critical depending on when you've triggered them? I agree with those that say there should be consequences for leaving Immy or quests for too long, just that there be timers. Like give Windspear Hills 5 days before Garren's son gets killed and bad things happen. Get Irenicus to break free five days into Chapter 2 (got transported, drugged, I assumed, got to know his bearings, planned, and then broke loose) and then give him 20 days to torture Immy. Another 10 days to do the spell, and then every day after that, if you don't get to her soon enough, bad things happen.
Sorry, just my suggestion and random thoughts.
Sorry, just my suggestion and random thoughts.
Through lightning, travel shadow,
Through hell and all above,
Surviving sword and arrow,
Bound stronger by the love
***
And in the end a witness,
To where the death has lain,
Silent through the sorrow,
Where innocents lie slain
#13
NiGHTMARE
-
- Member
- 2328 posts
Posted 13 July 2005 - 05:48 AM
The Lands of Intrigue mod will feature a component called "Consequences", which will affect various quests if they're not completed before chapter 6. This includes the de'Arnise Keep, the Druid Grove/Trademeet, Umar Hills, Windspear Hills, as well as some of LoI's new quests.
Mostly it's just an excuse to make the quests tougher for high-ish level parties (i.e. more and/or tougher enemies), but there will be a few alterations to the plot as well. An example:
Mostly it's just an excuse to make the quests tougher for high-ish level parties (i.e. more and/or tougher enemies), but there will be a few alterations to the plot as well. An example:
Umar Hills: If you didn't defeat the shade lord, all the surviving citizens of Imnesvale (plus the Sythillisian deserters) have run away, and all that's left in the village are shades, shadows and shadow wolves. The people of Imnesvale only return once the shade lord has been defeated. Valygar, if you didn't kill him or invite him into the party, is still in his cabin, but badly wounded.
#14
TruePurple
-
- Member
- 46 posts
Posted 13 July 2005 - 10:17 AM
An optional component nightmare? Not sure I'd want that.
#15
NiGHTMARE
-
- Member
- 2328 posts
Posted 13 July 2005 - 10:48 AM
Why wouldn't you want it to be an optional component?
#16
TruePurple
-
- Member
- 46 posts
Posted 13 July 2005 - 10:54 AM
Hehe I mean, -Is it a optional component? I'm not sure I'd want side quests to progress based on getting to chapter 6. Though changes like that would be cool if they were based on time instead.
Sorry I made my post so short that it was unclear.
Sorry I made my post so short that it was unclear.
Edited by TruePurple, 13 July 2005 - 10:56 AM.
#17
Andyr
-
- Member
- 2318 posts
HERR RASENKOPF
Posted 15 July 2005 - 04:14 PM
Yes, it will be a separate optional component from other quest-related stuff.
"We are the Gibberlings Three, as merry a band as you ever did see..." - Home of IE mods
< jcompton > Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"
< jcompton > Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"
