This is an extremely good idea. Extremely good.
BUT.
Hate to complicate further, but I think it would make sense to go weapon by weapon and re-think what the enchantment should be, rather than just saying 'reduce everything by two.' Look at what it's intended to be and do, and look at its history.
So, issue #1: different nonmagical weapons. Sounds great, but also sounds like a lot of work. I personally wouldn't bother with 'low-grade' weapons; normal weapons are cheap, and anyway why would any weaponsmith in his right mind associate himself with shoddy work? More importantly, why would the PC ever want to buy or use them? They might be good for atmosphere, and might make BG1 interesting, but we're starting with a high (8+) level PC with easy access to better weapons. Not worth the effort, I think. Well-crafted items, on the other hand, might be interesting. They should be expensive, and give decent bonuses. Maybe make all +1 items into well-crafted nonmagical items, or have two grades of well-crafted items, and convert down all the +1s and +2s. Doesn't really matter how you do it.
Issue #2: What to do with the magical weapons? First off, here's a good rule: NO vanilla items at more than +1. 'Magic, but nothing else special about it' means +1, period. Not ethat this does not mean 'reduce everythign by 2.' Bullets +2 would become bullets +1, and bullets +4 would become bullets +1. Equalize the prices and make them all the same item, just in different colors. Then go on to the named items. Are they magic, and give some other benefit, but that's it? Then reduce them to +1. Ilbratha is a well-done example of this: the magical sword of King Azoun I, and it's just +1. The Halcyon Spear is another good one. Examples of other named items that should follow in Ilbratha's lead and become merely +1: the Blade of Roses (super cheap as is); Namarra; Belm; Ras; Adjatha; Chaos & Entropy; Kundane; Arbane's Sword; Sword of Arvoreen (perhaps); Jhor the Bleeder; Lilarcor; Corthala Family Blade; Impaler (perhaps); Boomerang Dagger; Firetooth (perhaps); Azuredge (for three grand this is better than the MoD??); Hangard's Axe; Frostreaver; Stonefire; Ashideena; Bone Club; Gnasher; Blackblood; Elemental Staves; Staff-Mace/Spear; Cleric's Staff; Staff of Striking; Sling of Seeking; etc.
The idea is, being magical is THE bonus you get for being magical. If there's another bonus as well, like mirror image or elemental damage, that's fine, but that should be another, separate bonus. It shouldn't lead the main bonus to be increased. For many of these weapons (look at Belm, or Lilarcor) the secondary bonuses are so valuable that there's no real need to increase the basic bonus.
The exceptions are those weapons for which a second bonus, on top of the basic magical bonus, is making the weapon more powerful specifically in order to vanquish more powerful foes. I think Daystar is a good example - it's good as it is now, at +2. Other weapons might even be more powerful: thigns like the Warblade or Carsomyr or could be +3 or even +4.
Finally, issue #3: precisely what bonuses magical weapons will have. If someone goes through the time and effort to enchant a blade, it should really kick butt; but a +1 bonus is all but unnoticeable under the current system. To make magic items even rarer and more expensive, and yet grant the same puny bonuses, seems bad.
So one option is if you implement nonmagical well-crafted items: say you have two grades of superior items, one giving a 1-point bonus and the other a 2-point bonus. Since magical weapons will be presumed to be well-made, those measly +1 weapons will give a 3-point bonus. That is substantial, and seems good to me.
Without the nonmagical well-crafted items, I think it would be reasonable to double thac0 bonuses. So all those +1 items above would be +2 to hit, and Carsomyr +3 would be +6 to hit - truly powerful, as it should be. To balance this maybe reduce or even eliminate the damage bonuses. Or whatever. Point is, once the decision is made 'how magical' items should become, it must then be decided what exactly it means to be that magical.
Mod:Magic Item Crisis
Started by Rabain, Jul 08 2005 11:13 AM
51 replies to this topic
#42
-silas-
-silas-
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- Guest
Posted 18 July 2005 - 09:38 PM
Another, pretty much unconnected, thought:
One of the best parts of BG1 was when you fought another party of adventurers and then got to take their stuff. They were tough battles, and they could use the stuff against you (remember the dude with bracers of archery throwing darts? Nasty!), but it was that much more rewarding to get the magic items. BG2 totally screwed this up. There are few things more frustrating than getting Rashad's Talon as a quest reward from the genies in Trademeet, and immediately selling it because it sucks compared to a scimitar you find in a pile of hay during the same quest. (sorry if that's a spoiler
)
If you're going to worry about how to get powerful items, then many of the named items should be removed from stores (Tansheron's Bow, Ras, Bracers of AC anything, I'm looking at you!) and given to various enemies.
One of the best parts of BG1 was when you fought another party of adventurers and then got to take their stuff. They were tough battles, and they could use the stuff against you (remember the dude with bracers of archery throwing darts? Nasty!), but it was that much more rewarding to get the magic items. BG2 totally screwed this up. There are few things more frustrating than getting Rashad's Talon as a quest reward from the genies in Trademeet, and immediately selling it because it sucks compared to a scimitar you find in a pile of hay during the same quest. (sorry if that's a spoiler
)If you're going to worry about how to get powerful items, then many of the named items should be removed from stores (Tansheron's Bow, Ras, Bracers of AC anything, I'm looking at you!) and given to various enemies.
#44
Rabain
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- Member
- 653 posts
God
Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:52 PM
Zyraen seems to have done what you requested in his recent release: Item Nerfs & Balancing.
Except for the redistribution of magic item locations.
What I was aiming for here was not to rework existing Named magical items but to reduce the large number of generic magical items in the game.
One thing that has to be considered in BG2 is that a lot of the creatures you fight have immunities to certain enchantment levels on weapons so if all magical weapons were reduced a lot of the creatures would become unhitable.
Zyraen seems to have put some work into this mod, replacing all the items with lesser powered versions. Perhaps in a later edition he would consider incorporating reducing the enchantment of all non-magical items, I think these two idea's go well together and should be in the same mod as components.
Except for the redistribution of magic item locations.
What I was aiming for here was not to rework existing Named magical items but to reduce the large number of generic magical items in the game.
One thing that has to be considered in BG2 is that a lot of the creatures you fight have immunities to certain enchantment levels on weapons so if all magical weapons were reduced a lot of the creatures would become unhitable.
Zyraen seems to have put some work into this mod, replacing all the items with lesser powered versions. Perhaps in a later edition he would consider incorporating reducing the enchantment of all non-magical items, I think these two idea's go well together and should be in the same mod as components.
A knight without armour in a savage land...
#45
-silas-
-silas-
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- Guest
Posted 19 July 2005 - 01:08 PM
Ah, I don't think I've seen that mod. Thanks for the heads up.
You're totally right that creature immunities would have to be adjusted (though perhaps not too much -- e.g. the idea that a 10th level party won't be able to kill Kangaxx really, really doesn't bother me. Let's face it, they shouldn't be able to take down a normal lich, much less a demilich.
And yes, reducing the unnamed magic items is a simpler and more basic concern.
We = seeing i 2 i.
You're totally right that creature immunities would have to be adjusted (though perhaps not too much -- e.g. the idea that a 10th level party won't be able to kill Kangaxx really, really doesn't bother me. Let's face it, they shouldn't be able to take down a normal lich, much less a demilich.
And yes, reducing the unnamed magic items is a simpler and more basic concern.
We = seeing i 2 i.
#46
Zyraen
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- Modder
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- 1402 posts
Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:37 PM
The Nerf Item Mod nerfs many of the cheesy items in BG2, you might want to look at it under http://www.shsforums...showtopic=16441 in Misc Released Mods 
Off the side note, I think it shouldn't be too hard to clean off the +1/+2 weapons etc, as well as clearing away the weapon immunities for certain creatures, I guess. Nerfing the damage / thac0 bonuses though, will be a bit trickier.
That being said I think +1 should be normal with maybe damage bonus, +2 should be +1, +3 and +4 should both be lumped together as +2 weapons, and +5 weapons should be reduced to +3...
Off the side note, I think it shouldn't be too hard to clean off the +1/+2 weapons etc, as well as clearing away the weapon immunities for certain creatures, I guess. Nerfing the damage / thac0 bonuses though, will be a bit trickier.
That being said I think +1 should be normal with maybe damage bonus, +2 should be +1, +3 and +4 should both be lumped together as +2 weapons, and +5 weapons should be reduced to +3...
Edited by Zyraen, 21 July 2005 - 10:38 PM.
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#47
-silas-
-silas-
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- Guest
Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:09 PM
Okay: put aside the named weapons, and leave the magical scale from +1 to +6. They still might have to be dealt with. Let's say all vanilla +1 items are converted to nonmagical "expertly crafted" items, with a +1 bonus to damage; and the vanilla +2 items are converted to nonmagical "superbly crafted" items with +1 to both thac0 and damage. Problem is, now a sword +1 must have the magical +1 bonuses to thac0 and damage as well as the superb craftsmanship bonuses. Easy enough to factor this in when converting the +3 weapons down to +1, but the pain in the neck is the named items would have to be changed as well.
An alternative is to leave +1 magical items as they are and simply erase all the vanilla +2 and +3 items from the game (instead of converting them down). This has the disadvantage of not using the well-crafted nonmagical items, which are kinda cool (liked them in IWD), but the advantage of not having to change all the named items. And elimination as opposed to downward conversion, while severe, does fit the theme of a magic item crisis á la the BG1 iron crisis.
And fwiw, if this does turn into a full-blown mod, it will essentially be about limiting what magic items are available for sale in stores. Under this description, I think it is entirely appropriate for some future version of it to go about removing various named items from stores and placing them on enemies instead. I like mods that are tightly themed, like the apack or Song and Silence. E.g. Refinements is fabulous, but it always weirded me out that they have this random kit in there as an optional component. It has nothing to do with the stated purpose of the mod, it's just a new kit; so shouldn't it be its own separate thing? ....rambling again, sorry....
An alternative is to leave +1 magical items as they are and simply erase all the vanilla +2 and +3 items from the game (instead of converting them down). This has the disadvantage of not using the well-crafted nonmagical items, which are kinda cool (liked them in IWD), but the advantage of not having to change all the named items. And elimination as opposed to downward conversion, while severe, does fit the theme of a magic item crisis á la the BG1 iron crisis.
And fwiw, if this does turn into a full-blown mod, it will essentially be about limiting what magic items are available for sale in stores. Under this description, I think it is entirely appropriate for some future version of it to go about removing various named items from stores and placing them on enemies instead. I like mods that are tightly themed, like the apack or Song and Silence. E.g. Refinements is fabulous, but it always weirded me out that they have this random kit in there as an optional component. It has nothing to do with the stated purpose of the mod, it's just a new kit; so shouldn't it be its own separate thing? ....rambling again, sorry....
#48
Kalindor
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- Member
- 142 posts
Nerd of Lordly Calibur
Posted 24 July 2005 - 06:03 PM
I agree that the power level of magical items on average is far too high in BG2. I have no problem with nerfing or even nixing generic +# items. However, the items that actually have a history and unique powers should remain intact. Weakened, perhaps, but conceptually intact. They add flavor to the BG2 universe, IMO. Which items are "conceptually flavorful and interesting" is in the eye of the beholder, of course.
Another issue is the fact that there are multiple mods which greatly heigthen the difficulty of the game and the power of the enemies. While I would enjoy even some extra challenge on top of these, there are those who would forgo the mod simply because the difficulty adjustment you are proposing due to equipment would be tailored to a non-modded BG2 and they would be using tactics or whatnot. Also, not everyone enjoys playing with 6 characters, and making that a requirement just to survive in vanilla BG2 would alienate some from the proposed mod. I am personally not a fan of solo'ing, but to each his own.
What of other mods also? There are items in some of the mods that trump the best TOB equipment (*cough* *cough* Solaufein *cough*). Would this mod endeavor to lower not only the enchantments but also the item descriptions of these mods? Or would the player that wishes to play with this mod and others need to go through the override files by him/herself and edit them by hand?
Another issue is the fact that there are multiple mods which greatly heigthen the difficulty of the game and the power of the enemies. While I would enjoy even some extra challenge on top of these, there are those who would forgo the mod simply because the difficulty adjustment you are proposing due to equipment would be tailored to a non-modded BG2 and they would be using tactics or whatnot. Also, not everyone enjoys playing with 6 characters, and making that a requirement just to survive in vanilla BG2 would alienate some from the proposed mod. I am personally not a fan of solo'ing, but to each his own.
What of other mods also? There are items in some of the mods that trump the best TOB equipment (*cough* *cough* Solaufein *cough*). Would this mod endeavor to lower not only the enchantments but also the item descriptions of these mods? Or would the player that wishes to play with this mod and others need to go through the override files by him/herself and edit them by hand?
Edited by Kalindor, 24 July 2005 - 06:08 PM.
#49
-silas-
-silas-
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- Guest
Posted 19 August 2005 - 09:25 PM
Wanted to add a note on this topic: so I got impatient and did something like this in my current install. All +1 weapons became "high quality" weapons, with the same +1/+1 bonuses but no enchantment. All vanilla +2 and +3 weapons became "magical" weapons, with +2/+2 bonuses. (I think the only vanilla +4 weapons are bullets; I did something else with those.)
Further, I went through all the 'named' magical items. The vast majority became "magical" weapons with the standard "magical" +2/+2 bonuses; a few powerful ones got +3/+3 bonuses; and the artifact-level ones got +4/+4 bonuses. (I left their enchantment levels alone, out of laziness, so as not to have to change creature immunities).
That's it: two categories of nonmagical weapons, and three categories of magical weapons. A much simpler and more elegant system than the normal one. I must say, I have really been liking this change. Tactically it's not a big deal, but it's been much more enjoyable to play. I was ruthless in eliminating every "+" I could find in dialog.tlk. D&D has all sorts of +3 these and +5 those; it never occurred to me how much those things ruin one's suspension of disbelief. As a player you don't want to see "Crom Faeyr +5" or Staff of Rynn +4" -- you just want to see "Crom Faeyr" and "Staff of Rynn." So instead of a "sword plus whatever" you just see a "magical sword." But how powerful is it? Who knows? Who cares? Stop worrying about its stats and go kill something with it!
I don't have the time or skills to set this up as a distributable mod -- I just did it in NI. But if anyoen is considering doing this up as a mod, let this be a bit of encouragement: it will result in a better game.
Further, I went through all the 'named' magical items. The vast majority became "magical" weapons with the standard "magical" +2/+2 bonuses; a few powerful ones got +3/+3 bonuses; and the artifact-level ones got +4/+4 bonuses. (I left their enchantment levels alone, out of laziness, so as not to have to change creature immunities).
That's it: two categories of nonmagical weapons, and three categories of magical weapons. A much simpler and more elegant system than the normal one. I must say, I have really been liking this change. Tactically it's not a big deal, but it's been much more enjoyable to play. I was ruthless in eliminating every "+" I could find in dialog.tlk. D&D has all sorts of +3 these and +5 those; it never occurred to me how much those things ruin one's suspension of disbelief. As a player you don't want to see "Crom Faeyr +5" or Staff of Rynn +4" -- you just want to see "Crom Faeyr" and "Staff of Rynn." So instead of a "sword plus whatever" you just see a "magical sword." But how powerful is it? Who knows? Who cares? Stop worrying about its stats and go kill something with it!
I don't have the time or skills to set this up as a distributable mod -- I just did it in NI. But if anyoen is considering doing this up as a mod, let this be a bit of encouragement: it will result in a better game.
#50
travellersside
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- Member
- 1 posts
Posted 28 August 2005 - 12:41 AM
[quote name='Rabain' date='Jul 10 2005, 10:44 AM']
[quote]
By reducing the magical enchantment of all weapons, high power weapons become less frequent. The +4 Warblade in Ribalds would now be +2, all the +3 weapons become +1, all the +2 weapons become normal weapons etc.
[right]
[/right]
[/quote]
How about making the +2 weapons into Masterwork weapons? You'd get +1 to hit, no damage bonus, and it doesn't count as a magical weapon.
That way, they'd still be worth finding, but not especially powerful.
[quote]
By reducing the magical enchantment of all weapons, high power weapons become less frequent. The +4 Warblade in Ribalds would now be +2, all the +3 weapons become +1, all the +2 weapons become normal weapons etc.
[right]
[/right][/quote]
How about making the +2 weapons into Masterwork weapons? You'd get +1 to hit, no damage bonus, and it doesn't count as a magical weapon.
That way, they'd still be worth finding, but not especially powerful.
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Dream - The Sandman
#51
-Garagor-
-Garagor-
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- Guest
Posted 03 September 2005 - 03:57 AM
OMG, I just came here to post this exact same thread! Good thing I read the first few topics or I would've made an ass out of myself.
The mod name I had in mind was simply BG2: Low-Magic Zone.
First let me begin by saying that bg2's overabundance of magical and cheesy items was the #1 thing I disliked about bg2. So recently I decided to do a run using ZERO worn magical items. That means, all my characters wore standard armor, standard helmets, and standard weapons. My PC was a diviner, and I took korgan, viconia, and yoshimo->imoen.
The reason for picking korgan was for an easy way to supply him with an axe made by the enchanted weapon spell. Since korgan is very strong, I knew he'd be the only fighter I'd need in the party. I was right. He wore a full plate mail and a horned helmet he got off of mencar pebblecrusher throughout the whole game. At first he also used a large shield but eventually I got him to dual-wield. He almost always had the enchanted axes; they last a whole day and I got used to casting the spell which I placed on the diviner's quickspell slot (and imoen had one memorized as well).
Viccy has low strength so used splint mail throughout the whole game. She had a normal mace equipped but almost never used it. Most often she was invisible and healing korgan (which was needed often due to his amazing AC of 0
). This is why I didn't bother casting strength on her and equipping full plate. It would get too laborious and was unnecessary.
Having a mage not wear that most cheesy of items, the robe of cheddar, was a breath of fresh air. No longer was he able to unload half his spellbook during a timestop with improved alacrity.
Surprisingly, this party cruised through soa and tob without too much difficulty. The only fights which gave me serious trouble was in the maze in watcher's keep, namely those rooms with the baatezu or tanarri where you enter completely debuffed due to having come straight from a no-magic zone. The guardians were done on the first try, amazingly enough. Didn't bother with demogorgon however... I chickened out. Draconis also fell on the first try, but his dad took many reloads. Overall, fights required a lot more strategy and micromanagement, but weren't frustratingly hard. The game simply becomes a hell of a lot more fun when you don't have items playing it for you.
Now they're stuck at the ravager. He can only be hit with +4 weapons, so only the mages can hit him with black blade of disaster, the energy blades, melf's meteors, etc.. I'm trying to figure out which spells he's actually not immune to so I can get a shot at the final battle.
Aaaaanyway... it was because of this party that I thought of a low-magic mod. The first thing to do would be to completely empty all stores of magical items except for wands and potions. Every single one of them. Bonus merchant items should be completely done away with. Uber items like the staff of the magi and celestial fury should simply be strategically relocated, preferrably to tob. SotM would fit well as the ravager's loot. Celestial fury would have a perfect home in the kensai guardian at watcher's keep. Basically, the higher the enchantment, the later in the game it appears. This is a more elegant way than having to radically tweak every single enchanted item in the game. Even so, some of them should still receive tweaks (tuigan's bow, belm) without destroying the item's history, and others should simply be done away with, with care to not favor any of the weapon types so players don't feel forced to use hammers on their kensai, or a 2-handed sword on their dwarven fighter. This would require someone with a strong design sensibility to do right.
The mod name I had in mind was simply BG2: Low-Magic Zone.
First let me begin by saying that bg2's overabundance of magical and cheesy items was the #1 thing I disliked about bg2. So recently I decided to do a run using ZERO worn magical items. That means, all my characters wore standard armor, standard helmets, and standard weapons. My PC was a diviner, and I took korgan, viconia, and yoshimo->imoen.
The reason for picking korgan was for an easy way to supply him with an axe made by the enchanted weapon spell. Since korgan is very strong, I knew he'd be the only fighter I'd need in the party. I was right. He wore a full plate mail and a horned helmet he got off of mencar pebblecrusher throughout the whole game. At first he also used a large shield but eventually I got him to dual-wield. He almost always had the enchanted axes; they last a whole day and I got used to casting the spell which I placed on the diviner's quickspell slot (and imoen had one memorized as well).
Viccy has low strength so used splint mail throughout the whole game. She had a normal mace equipped but almost never used it. Most often she was invisible and healing korgan (which was needed often due to his amazing AC of 0
). This is why I didn't bother casting strength on her and equipping full plate. It would get too laborious and was unnecessary.Having a mage not wear that most cheesy of items, the robe of cheddar, was a breath of fresh air. No longer was he able to unload half his spellbook during a timestop with improved alacrity.
Surprisingly, this party cruised through soa and tob without too much difficulty. The only fights which gave me serious trouble was in the maze in watcher's keep, namely those rooms with the baatezu or tanarri where you enter completely debuffed due to having come straight from a no-magic zone. The guardians were done on the first try, amazingly enough. Didn't bother with demogorgon however... I chickened out
. Draconis also fell on the first try, but his dad took many reloads. Overall, fights required a lot more strategy and micromanagement, but weren't frustratingly hard. The game simply becomes a hell of a lot more fun when you don't have items playing it for you.Now they're stuck at the ravager. He can only be hit with +4 weapons, so only the mages can hit him with black blade of disaster, the energy blades, melf's meteors, etc.. I'm trying to figure out which spells he's actually not immune to so I can get a shot at the final battle.
Aaaaanyway... it was because of this party that I thought of a low-magic mod. The first thing to do would be to completely empty all stores of magical items except for wands and potions. Every single one of them. Bonus merchant items should be completely done away with. Uber items like the staff of the magi and celestial fury should simply be strategically relocated, preferrably to tob. SotM would fit well as the ravager's loot. Celestial fury would have a perfect home in the kensai guardian at watcher's keep. Basically, the higher the enchantment, the later in the game it appears. This is a more elegant way than having to radically tweak every single enchanted item in the game. Even so, some of them should still receive tweaks (tuigan's bow, belm) without destroying the item's history, and others should simply be done away with, with care to not favor any of the weapon types so players don't feel forced to use hammers on their kensai, or a 2-handed sword on their dwarven fighter
. This would require someone with a strong design sensibility to do right.
#52
NiGHTMARE
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- Member
- 2328 posts
Posted 03 September 2005 - 04:37 AM
Someone did produce an item balancing mod not too long ago, though I'm afraid I can't remember what it was called nor where to get it. But I'm sure someone else will have such information .
.
