51 replies to this topic

[Delight]

And what would normal weapons become?
I think that adding master crafted and customized (serrated, poisoned, made of special materials, made by other races (I think that Elves should use katana like blades. I don't understand why a mere human would make better swords than an Elf), would solve the problem.
Powerful characters would use special weapons and the part of magical weapons could be simply removed.
Also, the player could buy special weapons instead of magical ones.

[Rabain]

Special weapons are a decent idea but not within the scope of this mod as I had envisioned it. Perhaps if I actually got around to doing this mod a future version could incorporate the idea.

It would be easy enough to reduce the magical enchantment of all weapons. More difficult to add numerous weapons with various abilities.

I too am a fan of the idea of weapons for races. Personally I think a weapon like Crom Feyr should be usable by dwarves only, The Equaliser unusable by the small races (as with all large 2-handed swords IMO) and so on. There are not enough restrictions in my opionion. This was less of a problem in BG1 as the number of magical items was less, BG2 changes this with its surplus of magic.

Normal weapons would become low quality weapons or simply disappear from the game altogether.

[Archmage Silver]

At least those goblin axes are not necessary! Hauling them around is a pain.

[Delight]

Normal weapons would become low quality weapons or simply disappear from the game altogether.

That doesn't make sense to me .
So, you would like to lower the quality of all weapons without bothering to think about realism or common sense?

[Rabain]

That doesn't make sense to me  .
So, you would like to lower the quality of all weapons without bothering to think about realism or common sense?

I would like to lower the quality of all weapons exactly for the purposes of realism and common sense. Normal weapons wouldn't disappear from the game, the +2 weapons that are there now would become the normal weapons. The weapons that are currently Normal would either become low quality or be replaced by the downgraded +2 weapons.

How many +3 weapons are in the game? Dozens if not hundreds, these would all become +1 weapons, rare but not unheard of. How many +4 weapons? 20 or so? These would become +2 weapons, more powerful, less available.

Perhaps the few +6 weapons that can be made could become +5, there are so few of these it would be more real to be this way that the way it is currently.

I think players have been spoiled a bit by the availablity of high-powered magical weapons in BG2. It would never be this way in PnP.

[Delight]

I'm talking about downgrading normal weapons.
Normal weapons should stay normal weapons.
I think that magical weapons that lose all magical bonus should become master crafted weapons (to differ them from normal non-magical weapons).
This way both goals would be accomplished. Amount of magical weapons would decrease dramatically and common sense would be preserved.

[Archmage Silver]

Yep, normal weapons could stay as they are, no need to actually change them. I agree that +6 weapons should be used only by powerful archmages or other similar beings. +6 makes it like an artifact or more.

[Rabain]

I'm talking about downgrading normal weapons.
Normal weapons should stay normal weapons.

That's a contradiction but anyway...

You keep talking about common sense, common sense in what sense? There are lots of stores in BG2 that sell +2 and +3 weapons that have no other abilities other than being +2/+3. These become Normal and +1 weapons, is there a problem with this with regard to common sense?

I am not talking about taking something like Daystar and turning it into a Normal weapon that still has the ability to cast Sunray. But a +2 sword being sold in a shop would become a Normal weapon being sold in a shop. Daystar remains Daystar, in my original post I did say "only named items of these magic levels remain". Okay perhaps calling a +2 weapon that gets reduced to non-magical could be renamed to master-crafted instead of normal...is there much difference between master-crafted and normal and would it be worth the effort? It a small point that's not worth arguing over.

Other items that apply protections I think should be reduced also, such as shields that offer fire resistances or at least make them non-stacking (though I'd prefer just to reduce the bonus). Considering you can get over 100% resistance with the right items I think this is not a bad idea.

[Delight]

Master-craftedweapons have +1 bonus to hit or to damage
and cost 5 times more than normal ones.

I'm talking about downgrading normal weapons.
Normal weapons should stay normal weapons.

That's a contradiction but anyway...

You keep talking about common sense, common sense in what sense? There are lots of stores in BG2 that sell +2 and +3 weapons that have no other abilities other than being +2/+3. These become Normal and +1 weapons, is there a problem with this with regard to common sense?

Downgrading magical weapons is common sense.
Downgrading normal weapons isn't common sense .
Turning magical weapon into "normal" unmagical weapon isn't common sense too.

Edited by Delight, 10 July 2005 - 07:27 AM.

[Rabain]

Downgrading magical weapons is common sense.

Fair enough.

Downgrading normal weapons isn't common sense

I suppose there wouldn't be much enthusiasm for low grade weapons...who would use them?

Turning magical weapon into "normal" unmagical weapon isn't common sense too.

This is were we differ, I am talking numbers. No I am not going to go through the game changing all +2 weapons to normal...after all there are plenty of normal weapons in the game that do just fine as normal weapons. What I would do is have the number of each type of downgrade remain the same for the number downgraded...i.e if there are 20 +3 weapons in the game then there will be 20 +1 weapons in the game after the mod does its thing, if there are 10 +4 weapons then there will be 10 +2 weapons after the mod is installed. That to me makes sense. After the mod there will not be 1000's of +1 or +2 weapons for purchase, only the same number that were previously +3 or +4 weapons for sale.

Quest related weapons & Named weapons remain the same for the time being.

[Rabain]

So to sum up it would stand as follows:

• Pretty much all Named magical items would remain the same, possibly having some of their non weapon related bonuses reduced (fire resistance, armour class etc)
  
  
• All Normal weapons (un-enchanted) stay as is.
  
  
• All +1 and +2 weapons become Master-crafted with no magical enchantment (+1 bonus to hit or to damage).
  
  
• +3 weapons become +1
  
• +4 weapons become +2

I know this looks as if +3 and +4 weapons will become non-existant but remember that Named versions at this enchantment will remain. Only the generic +3 or +4 weapons/items for sale will be changed.

Suggestions for changes to Named magical items are welcome. I for one would like to see items such as Celestial Fury lose its Stun ability for one or (as mentioned above) Crom Feyr become usable by Dwarves only.

[Galactygon]

I have heard some of the named artifacts are only +2 or +3 weapons in AD&D; however they have other interesting abilities such as permanent sunshine within 1 km radius around the wearer, etc.

-Galactygon

[Rabain]

Yeah generally the Named weapons in PnP are low enchantment but then PnP games can last...years!

Permanent Sunshine 1km radius I could do with here sometimes...but for the purposes of the mod they would have a slightly smaller area of effect!

[TruePurple]

Well I'd like to see regular weapons of different grades (not just regular or mastercraftsman) But one could think of plus weapons as different grades of regular weapons instead of "magical". I know that doesn't "fly" with d&d logic of the matter but frankly I don't care for d&d that much anyways.

Of course for that to work with the reasoning, master craftsmanship would have to become something a little different.

Changing the amount of gold, gems and stuff creatures drop could help the game and the absurd gold glut you get.

Edited by TruePurple, 12 July 2005 - 11:37 AM.

[Rabain]

I would like to implement serrated edges, double edged, poisoned etc as was mentioned above in anther post but for the moment the basic changes seem easiest!

What types were you thinking of?

[TruePurple]

Was that question directed at me rabian?

I figure different blacksmiths would forge weapons/armor of different qualities (due to different levels of skill) also different types of metal, metal alloys and tempering methods (which also is a skill as well as a technology issue) come into play with real weapons/armor. I'd like to see this in game, instead of all normal weapons being indistinguisable.

It would be interesting if you had to figure out the skill of a blacksmith, shop around for different prices and skill sets of blacksmiths. Maybe even seek out some master blacksmith for the really good stuff (not necessarily magical) which is more of a bg1 idea since its more a exploring idea.

Other ideas to throw out there is blacksmiths improving with how much they sell, developing relationships with them where the more they like you the more willing they are to put extra effort and time into developing a quality item for you. Seeking out alloys for blacksmiths to use in making items would be interesting.

Also mage shops who can upgrade your weapons/armor to magical, their ability and and chance of success (failure meaning loss of item) depending on weapon quality and material.

Ok, thats alot of possibly just pie in sky wishful thinking. But on the most basic level is different qualities of armor and weapons. The simpliest approach being to think of plus weapons/armor as another grade of regular nonmagical item. And doing something with master craftsman items so they reflect a really nicely made item (a really high plus factor or something)

[Rabain]

That is all pretty much doable, though working out which abilites/features go with which metal would be the hard part.

Iron or Steel or Green Steel or Titanium, adamantium etc all are better than each other in D&D but apart from all being harder to work into a weapon initially you basically come up against the same problem as always: if you make these items without also adding the changes to the way these are obtained there is little point as everyone would prefer an admantium or mithral weapon/armour to a normal steel one.

And apart from the descriptions you would want them to look nice which = new bams. That is a workload there in itself!

It is a nice idea but for me I am afraid that's a mod for another day!

[TruePurple]

"which abilities/features go with which metal"
mostly it could be a difference of weight and potential effectiveness (attack defense and penetration). Some of the more effective stuff could be heavier and some lighter. Also some metals could take enchantments better then others (better metals in terms of performance doesn't follow better at taking enchantments) No special abilities needed though. With the exception of say silver which can be especially good on killing undead and stuff.

These metals could be in the rock itself. Using a special miner pick item players could attempt to mine it out (based on strength) Most areas wouldn't have anything. But if they knew where to look via some in game clues..(mild visual clues or npc)

Then you have to find a blacksmith skilled enough to use the material. If the blacksmith isn't skilled enough then better metals may turn lower grade/less effective then lower grade metals.

Looking nice? Not necessary, while a mild recoloring would be nice thats not necessary either. We know that its different and that should be enough, anyways BG isn't exactly a graphics based game. Looking nice/different is unimportant imo.

[Delight]

BTW.
Most of melee weapons in D&D weight almost two times more than real ones.

[Rabain]

Real worlds weights have no consideration here I think. In real world terms a person would find it very hard to carry one extra set of armour from one town to another while carrying their own, unlike BG / D&D where you can carry 10 or more in your backpack, once you have room.

If anything D&D weapons/armour should be heavier than they are currently...either that or the strength system needs to be reworked but that's getting off the point.