45 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

The idea simply put, when any character (PC or NPC, with some exceptions) gets below 25% health they fall unconscious. This could be the same point low health scripts (where npc say things concerning injured comrades) kicks in, making for a much more dramatic effect.

Undead, trolls and a number of others would be immune to it. Raging units could be immunity to it (but lose the temp bonus to health they get)

The more ways to deal with a situation other then killing, the more roleplaying involved. If I can knock a npc out rather then killing it (or ignoring it as it attacks me which is really silly of course) then that gives me another tool to deal with a situation and mod story tellers another option at their disposal.

Now, to make things clear, and direct this discussion towards the technical part rather than personal problems :

There are numerous problems with your idea TruePurple, as I will list them below. That is why I said it is forced. It is not an offense at all, I had my own share of poor and forced ideas back then (and even nowadays )...

1. First of all, many creatures are immune to Uncounsciousness already. Some of them by their nature, racial traits, or merely to make them tougher in specific encounters. In ToB this is even more so. Now, to implement your idea, one would need to alter these creatures, and sometimes mess with their basic concepts as well - not something that would be a good idea if you ask me.

2. The second problem is that there is a great difference in that 25% when it comes to a Hobgoblin and a Gragon for example. While I accept that the first falls uncounscious when reaching 8 HPs, I can hardly accept that the Dragon does the same at 50 HPs. %-s are never really fitting to be used for this. Perhaps if the limit would be toned down to 10% it would become more believable.

3. The third problem comes with all the current low-HP dialogues of opponents. Many foes have specific dialogues when they reach a specific HP amount (or using the MinHP1 item), but their scripts wouldn't be triggered if they'd lie uncounscious - you'd have to alter these as well.

4. Your idea to see opponents fight more tactical (e.g. healing, reviving the injured/uncounscious comrades) sounds promising, the only problem is that these need to be scripted as well. And that would mean much work, again. Opponents already do this in a few ToB encounters (Yaga-Shura battle for example) where they give potions to the wounded comrades for example. But that is only one fight from the 10.000 in the game - do you have the time and patience to script the others?

And I had other probelms as well, but they escape me right now. Either way, this is not something that could be perfectly incorporated into THIS game, no matter how much work you put into it. Where I sad the engine is limited in this regard, I meant it.

[TruePurple]

Totally reading too much into every little thing jastey.

I mentioned the previous post because he was writing his post when I posted mine and he might not have known it was there (and might not have reason to scroll up) It had nothing to do with "posted that already" or what ever your talking about.

As far as "we" I was a little lost by what Vlasák was saying in that segment of the post. I didn't "very well know" anything of the sort else I wouldn't have asked. I can't imagine what multiple personalities has to do with anything.

Your faulting the use of the word "lofty"? Would the word grand be any better? Or would you find that equally insulting?

A good number of people including Vlasák (and you jastey) say that his version would require too much scripting, taking your guys word on this, I point out there is simpler ways to approach this. With a bit of simplification we can take allot of the work out of this and make the application of any NLC system more likely to actually be developed and see the light of day.

[TruePurple]

First of all, many creatures are immune to Uncounsciousness already. Some of them by their nature, racial traits, or merely to make them tougher in specific encounters. In ToB this is even more so. Now, to implement your idea, one would need to alter these creatures, and sometimes mess with their basic concepts as well - not something that would be a good idea if you ask me.

Unconsciousness from what source/'s? Anyways I've already said that a number should already be immune to unconsciousness (undead etc) I see no problem keeping a number of general monsters immune to being knocked out.

My main concern mostly is to humanoid/sentient creatures- people. Any of those immune to unconsciousness? If so, how would they be wrecked by being able to fall unconscious from being beaten to a bloody pulp?

2. The second problem is that there is a great difference in that 25% when it comes to a Hobgoblin and a Gragon for example. While I accept that the first falls unconscious when reaching 8 HPs, I can hardly accept that the Dragon does the same at 50 HPs. %-s are never really fitting to be used for this. Perhaps if the limit would be toned down to 10% it would become more believable.

Well I don't see 50 hp as a problem, as long as that is 25% of its health. But we could have a upper cap on failing unconscious, never above X standard no percentage health. (like never above 25 health or what ever you desire)

If we set it too low, it becomes hard to hit without going over (and killing instead)

@3 I guess, would that be so bad or hard?

@4 that was just a suggestion of how it might add strategy in game. I haven't played most of bg2 so I don't know how often it applies. Are their creatures that heal over time in combat? This would apply in that situation as well. I noticed you didn't refute how it would add stratagy and roleplaying to your own party and protecting fallen members

And I had other problems as well, but they escape me right now. Either way, this is not something that could be perfectly incorporated into THIS game, no matter how much work you put into it. Where I sad the engine is limited in this regard, I meant it.

Perfectly? Maybe not. In a limited fashion that adds adds (even if limited) additional game strategy and roleplaying plus another tool for modders to tell their story? I think thats an attainable goal.

None of the problems you mentioned, seemed that bad, even simply approaching from another angle can make for a easy "fix".

Is it possible for units to get minus health? Unconsciousness could happen at zero health and death X -minus health depending on species type or max health

I like Vlasák's ideas too, either or, a combo of our ideas, or someone elses idea, applied in a practical way should be considered. BG could use a (even if limited) NLC system.

Edited by TruePurple, 30 June 2005 - 01:41 AM.

[jastey]

I point out there is simpler ways to approach this.

Pointing out anything with the wrong wording won't lead nowhere. Yes, OK, maybe it's only me, but I don't think so.

As to "lofty": My translator gives me some very bad translation for that word (I am no native English speaker.)

With a bit of simplification we can take allot of the work out of this and make the application of any NLC system more likely to actually be developed and see the light of day.

That would be cool. As I said before, I find the idea very intriguing. Having to kill every opponent, not offering any other role playing alternative was one of the things that let me take a close look at BG before I actually played it the first time.

[T.G.Maestro]

Unconsciousness from what source/'s? Anyways I've already said that a number should already be immune to unconsciousness (undead etc) I see no problem keeping a number of general monsters immune to being knocked out.

My main concern mostly is to humanoid/sentient creatures- people. Any of those immune to unconsciousness?

Yes, many of them are. And no, they don't have any "acceptable" reason for this, it is merely in as an extra effect to make them harder to beat. Many ToB opponents have this, especially bosses. It is something like the "undroppable helmet with no animation" thingy - many many ToB opponents have a "HelmNoan.itm" in their helm slots to illegally protect them from critical hits, yet retain the illusion that they don't wear any headgears... the fact that even Ioun Stones protect from criticals makes this one even worse.
Now, back to my original thought: you cannot just remove these immunities from these creatures throughout the game (and no, I'm not talking about those who have it legally, like Golems for example), because it would heavily unbalance these encounters. A sad thing I admit, but sometimes these extra effects are needed to make the game challanging. Remember, uncounsciousness can happen at any % with the right effect or weapon - making a boss-level opponent fall to these at the first hit would somehow kill the difficulty. :closedeyes:

@3 I guess, would that be so bad or hard?

Yes. But of course, if someone has the patienece to browse through the entire game to find/fix/rewrite these...

I haven't played most of bg2 so I don't know how often it applies. Are their creatures that heal over time in combat? This would apply in that situation as well. I noticed you didn't refute how it would add stratagy and roleplaying to your own party and protecting fallen members

Let me answer one by one to these questions.
Yes, there are creatures throughout the game with regeneration effects.
As for the additional tactical aspect of this modification, I can only say that there are already countless situations where one/more of your party members, or allies get stunned, knocked uncounscious, or otherwise become helpless, so this element is already there.

[Delight]

I tried implementing losing consciousness at certain hp level in my mod, but I couldn't make it work reliably.
Scripts aren't very reliable method of implementing it.
I recall that if character?s morale broken, the script stopped running.
Also IIRC it doesn't work when the character is doing something else at the moment.
Besides it doesn't work fluently .

[TruePurple]

@T.G.Maestro
How does unconsciousness currently work/what are the current triggers for it?

@ delight
Whats broken morale?

Is it possible for a character to have minus health and still be alive(but unconscious)? Did you ever try implementing unconsciousness with minus health delight?

Also IIRC it doesn't work when the character is doing something else at the moment

You mean like casting a spell or attacking with a weapon? Does it kick in after they finish?

[Delight]

@ delight
Whats broken morale?

Is it possible for a character to have minus health and still be alive(but unconscious)? Did you ever try implementing unconsciousness with minus health delight?

Also IIRC it doesn't work when the character is doing something else at the moment

You mean like casting a spell or attacking with a weapon? Does it kick in after they finish?

1. When morale is broken, the circle under creature's feet turns yellow and it pannics or goes berserk. Appearantly the scripts stops running too.
2. It's impossible because the character dies when his HP reaches 0.
3. Capitalize my name, please.
4. It kicks in after they finish massacring the character that they are attacking .

[T.G.Maestro]

@T.G.Maestro
How does unconsciousness currently work/what are the current triggers for it?

Uncounsciousness (the effect) is triggered by an opcode, called "Uncounsciousness". It can be applied to any spell/item effects in the game. Uncounsciousness stops scripts from running, makes the character fall to the ground and be disabled until the set time runs out. Damage from magical/physical attacks won't brake the status.
There is only one way to prevent it, and that is adding a "Protection from Ocode: Uncounsciousness" effect to the target creature, either by item or spell effect, or by a 2DA file.

[TruePurple]

Thank you for that information TG Maestro.

What spells/effects/items trigger unconsciousness? Is sleep considered unconsciousness? (I'd figure getting whacked in your sleep, even magical sleep would rouse you, least it should) If sleep is considered unconsciousness, does it go by any other names as well?

[T.G.Maestro]

What spells/effects/items trigger unconsciousness?

Uh, there are loads of them - the important thing is that all of them use the "uncounsciousness" opcode. As for spells, there is Power Word: Sleep, or a side effect of Comet for example. Innate abilities include Wing Buffet by Dragons.

Is sleep considered unconsciousness? (I'd figure getting whacked in your sleep, even magical sleep would rouse you, least it should) If sleep is considered unconsciousness, does it go by any other names as well?

As I remember, in IWD there is a different opcode for sleep, one that works the way you described - in BG2 it is pretty much the same as uncounsciousness though.

[Rabain]

Again I don't see how unconciousness as you want it would add to gameplay in BG2.

When someone (either party, enemy, neutral) is unconcious they cannot speak or be spoken to...they are just...there...lying on the ground. You cannot pick them up, you cannot step over them and block the next attack...they simply drop to the ground where they are standing. The idea of protecting unconcious party members during battle is nice but fairly impossible to get around with the way unconciousness works.

If you did implement unconciousness at a certain % or HP you would lose as much RP as you would gain...yes characters in battle would need to be protected...but actually protecting them would be near impossible. If PlayerX is fighting several enemies alongside another party member and PlayerX gets knocked unconcious you cannot have another party member step in and take PlayerX's position as you cannot move PlayerX at all! PlayerX will just keep getting hit by the creature attacking until he is dead.

Why do this when currently if PlayerX reaches 25% of its HP you can have him move back and move PlayerY into his position to fight the creature attacking...this is actually closer to what would happen in real battle.

Scripting healing/support for unconcious characters (especially for partymembers) is a bad idea in my opinion. You would be taking control of the party away from the player...PlayerX falls unconcious...all of a sudden my Cleric stops casting Smite so they can heal PlayerX? No thanks. I understand scripting can be optional but that just wouldn't add enough for me, sorry.

Also adding unconciousness for enemies alone would just be giving the party a huge advantage that they don't really need.

You are thinking PnP which allows pretty much anything but for mod purposes you have to live with IE...somethings just don't translate well...or at all to the game engine!

[T.G.Maestro]

I think Rabain summed it up very well.

[Archmage Silver]

Agreed, the current system for this works well enough.

[TruePurple]

Works well enough for what? If anything rabian pointed out yet more flaws in the game. Outside of a engine conversation like GEMrb, is fixing such combat system flaws doable?

you cannot have another party member step in and take PlayerX's position as you cannot move PlayerX at all! PlayerX will just keep getting hit by the creature attacking until he is dead.

True,(at least till fixed) but from what I've seen, enemies attack those who are attacking them first. So if you want to defend a fallen comrade then simply attack that which is attacking your comrade and it will switch attack focus.

Well if such combat system limitations and flaws aren't fixable at the moment, Then that leaves us Vlasák's ideas concerning nonlethal combat. Well with a couple modifications for simplicity of codings sake, no experience from knocking out, (though I do like the idea, if feasible) and ..

To just give it to a couple normal weapons, certain existing special weapons (as a choice maybe)& maybe one or two specially created weapons. This will save us allot of work since only a few weapons can do it.

Edited by TruePurple, 08 July 2005 - 10:42 AM.

[Rabain]

True,(at least till fixed) but from what I've seen, enemies attack those who are attacking them first.

You can't fix this, this is the way it works! GemRB okay possibly..but that is not what everyone is using to play the game/mod. Bad scripting causes them to attack those who attack them first, there are script mods to improve this.

So if you want to defend a fallen comrade then simply attack that which is attacking your comrade and it will switch attack focus.

That won't work, what happens in an area where you cannot hit the attacker of PlayerX? A narrow corridor or a pitched battle with numerous enemies? By the time you actually got into position to hit the enemy PlayerX's 25% HP would be gone...99% of the time at least. And if your enemy was using an improved script they most likely would continue to attack PlayerX. Using one flaw in the engine to bypass another is not good anyway.

To just give it to a couple normal weapons, certain existing special weapons (as a choice maybe)& maybe one or two specially created weapons. This will save us allot of work since only a few weapons can do it.

Unless you can get around the points above implementing unconciousness would not improve things. Vlasak's idea was for a Total Conversion where he could implement battle/scripting game-wide as he wished.

The only area where I could see unconciousness being used is if a thief backstabbed using one of the specially created unconciousness-causing weapons. You would be able to get past the creature without killing it...and possibly pickpocket it (though failing to pickpocket an unconcious character still causes them to become an enemy...i think). Though most players I would think would still go on to kill the creature for XP/Loot etc

I'm sorry if I seem like I am bashing your idea into the ground but currently unconciousness works fine for the purposes of game balance...it could be much better but so could a lot of things and the Engine-designers are long finished with the IE. The number of other things that need to be changed to allow unconsciousness to work properly would be better implemented in a completly new game engine.

[TruePurple]

You can't fix this (enemies attack those who are attacking them first)

Didn't say I wanted to fix that.

That won't work, what happens in an area where you cannot hit the attacker of PlayerX? A narrow corridor or a pitched battle with numerous enemies?

Why would that be a problem? There is bound to be situations where you wouldn't be able to defend someone, like narrow corridors or numerous enemies. The trick is to be tactical enough to avoid fighting in such conditions as much as possible. Thats what makes it tactical.

And if your enemy was using an improved script they most likely would continue to attack PlayerX.

You mean some players mod that changes this? Then simply don't download and install that mod.

Using one flaw in the engine to bypass another is not good anyway.

if it works without introducing any problems, then not only is it good, its grrreat! Well imperfect, but a fix is a fix.

Unless you can get around the points above implementing unconsciousness

What points are you talking about?

Vlasak's idea was for a Total Conversion where he could implement battle/scripting game-wide as he wished

Sorry you lost me, please explain differently. I can't make heads or tails of that sentence. (total conversation of what? for example)

My suggestions might help Vlasák's ideas by reducing scripting work/problems that has been mention by Vlasák and others as well.

In what way is backstab the only way to implement unconsciousness?

The number of other things that need to be changed to allow unconsciousness to work properly

...mostly already exist in the game. None of the points you have made so far contradict this. Just that its apparently unfortunately not practical to do it through hp at the moment.

Edited by TruePurple, 08 July 2005 - 11:44 AM.

[Rabain]

I responded to every point raised in your post. I am not going to go through it all again.

Unconciousnes is balanced enough for the way the engine works. Any attempts to "improve" it would, in my opinion, only introduce and highlight other flaws in the engine (such as not being able to move unconcious characters).

Suffice to say unconciousness works fine just as it is.

Total Conversion is a term used to describe a mod which attempts to rewrite the entire game. Not just the storyline and area's but the way the magic system works, damage is applied, attacks are performed etc. The TC still has to work within the confines of the game engine as currently this cannot be changed but an idea like Vlasaks could possibly work if it is included at design stage of a TC.

[TruePurple]

Balanced against what? What the hell does "balance" even have to do with the issue of adding a NLC system? And its not a matter of improving a NLC system but adding one. Not being able to move unconscious characters is not a problem with Vlasák's idea, nor is any of the other points you raised.

Vlasák is not suggesting anything close to "rewriting the entire game" An idea like Vlasák could work on a finished product like BG2, if pessimists like your being don't actively try to discourage it.

Suffice to say NLC doesn't exist at all as it is, and is a deserving and useful story telling tool to try to create.

Edited by TruePurple, 08 July 2005 - 12:53 PM.