24 replies to this topic

[Manveru]

ok, Im playing now quite well charged configuration.

I have installed everything that was supposed to be installed and work together according to the PDF file of Big Picture mod:

Game:
BG2 ToB + latest patch

Mods:
TDD (+patch)
SoA (+patch)
TS v602
BPv161G-FULL.zip
BP_s_and_h_Patchv6.zip
ImprovedOasis2_v7.exe
Redemption-v1.2.exe
PlanarSphereMod_v2.rar
BanterPacksV6.zip
Imoen-v12Full.rar
NPCFlirtV101.zip
tashia205g.zip
Weimer-Ease-v32.exe

The problems:

1) AR1500 crushes game each time I arrive to the half of bridge between beginning of the area and the spellhold complex. I tried to investigate the problem however none of my trials gave any result (for example deleting all actors)

2) Yoshimo has broken dialogue option in the speech with Irenicus in the beginning of the spellhold plot (when PC learns about his betrayal). It is worth to note that I had Kachiko in my party before but I had kicked her away to make place for other NPC (I used "separation" trick - i.e. I walked her to the shop and kicked from the party, this way Yoshimo rested in the party, this is the same trick as with Jaheira and Khalid in BG1). I wanted to keep yoshimo for his betrayal plot (and replace his slot by Imoen afterwards)

3) I have no idea from which mod comes joinable Xzar, but it seems to mess up the harpers plot (it was impossible to enter Harper's Hold normally, I had to use cluaconsole)

NPCs: it is my private oppinion but putting Xzar, Kivan, Yeslick and Kagain in the game without any story and even their speech is useless because those NPCs are not interesting at all, Im little disappointed by those NPCs.

As for other issues I would like to congratulate to whoever made Imoen's romance: a job is better than what Bioware has done with its romances (even Jaheira's romance has some inconsistencies and seems to be less polished than the Imoen's romance) Very good job !

I have not played yet most of mods that I have installed (because of Imoen's romance which adds a lot in terms of main plot gameplay - it really gives some credible reason to save her or to kick Irenicus to the hell )

[seanas]

The problems:

1) AR1500 crushes game each time I arrive to the half of bridge between beginning of the area and the spellhold complex. I tried to investigate the problem however none of my trials gave any result (for example deleting all actors)

you *do* have the wardstone for getting into spellhold, don't you? there's a trap halfway across the bridge that is supposed to kill the entire party if yr not carrying the wardstone (well, turn them to stone - same thing, really). the trap may well cause a CTD, especially if one or more of yr characters is immune to petrification.

if you *do* have the wardstone (and for completeness sake, it's being carried by the party leader), and it's still crashing, try the usual solutions: clean the cache and temp folders, try again. if still crashing, try removing AR1500.bcs and AR1500.bcs from the override folders. if still crashing, i'm out of solutions, but there's always the cluaconsole...

2) Yoshimo has broken dialogue option in the speech with Irenicus in the beginning of the spellhold plot (when PC learns about his betrayal). It is worth to note that I had Kachiko in my party before but I had kicked her away to make place for other NPC (I used "separation" trick - i.e. I walked her to the shop and kicked from the party, this way Yoshimo rested in the party, this is the same trick as with Jaheira and Khalid in BG1). I wanted to keep yoshimo for his betrayal plot (and replace his slot by Imoen afterwards)

well, that's hardly surprising. one of the things BP does (or rather, one of the things Tortured Souls does, which is a part of Big Picture) is make major changes to Yoshimo's betrayal plot - tricking the game into keeping him without Kachiko is guaranteed to cause problems, and there's nothing we can do to help. sorry, but you've stuffed this one up yrself.

3) I have no idea from which mod comes joinable Xzar, but it seems to mess up the harpers plot (it was impossible to enter Harper's Hold normally, I had to use cluaconsole)

that's a pesky bug that has recently reappeared with the v6 of the s_and_h patch - my fault, unfortunately. at some point there'll be a v8 of the patch; until then the solution (altho yr long past this point) is to do a

CLUAConsole:CreateCreature("Lyros")

and then the Harper quest will work as per normal.

NPCs: it is my private oppinion but putting Xzar, Kivan, Yeslick and Kagain in the game without any story and even their speech is useless because those NPCs are not interesting at all, Im little disappointed by those NPCs.

yr not alone; this is an opinion shared by many ppl.

As for other issues I would like to congratulate to whoever made Imoen's romance: a job is better than what Bioware has done with its romances (even Jaheira's romance has some inconsistencies and seems to be less polished than the Imoen's romance) Very good job !

I have not played yet most of mods that I have installed (because of Imoen's romance which adds a lot in terms of main plot gameplay - it really gives some credible reason to save her or to kick Irenicus to the hell )

i quite agree - the whole point of the entire BG series, in my opinion, is as one long romance of imoen, so the Imoen Romance allows us to play BGII the way it *should* be played!

[ScuD]

Is TS 6.02 compatible with BP? I think no.

[wellunhappy]

Is TS 6.02 compatible with BP? I think no.

you got that right TS 6.02 is not compatible with BP

[ScuD]

Then this is the source of the problem.
Only TS 5.05 should be used with BP 1.61.

Edited by ScuD, 21 June 2005 - 03:39 AM.

[Sir BillyBob]

Yes and no. TS version 6 and higher shouldn't have anything to do with the trap on the Asylum area. However, problems with Yoshi and Kach will happened now that the wrong version of TS is installed.

TDD NPCs (the ones you are complaining about) is a very old issue. TDD added these NPCs back into the game but it never gave them new dialogs or new quests. I guess this was something they had hoped to do at some point, don't know the full history of it. Unfortunately, no one else has jumped on the idea of fleshing them out either.

[Manveru]

Thanks for all feedback,

I have never played TDD before that is why I did not know that playable Xzar, Yeslic, etc. was added with it.

As for asylum wardstone I had it with me (I killed the mage that was keeping it in Brynnlaw).

Anyway as for Yoshimo/Kachiko problem I'm quite sure that problem comes from my trick with separation, however what I can only tell is that if it is not some other anomaly then the ones that made this mod would need to take into account this old trick (it is known from the very beginning of Infinity Engine games). For me it does not make that much difference (I played BG, BG2 ToB so many times in the past that there are not so many things that can still surprise me in the game), however for other player it may have some importance. Some way of preventing those two NPCs to separate when one of them is kicked away in different area would solve the problem (as most of players will not bother to decompile bcs or modify dialogues files)

[Vlad]

Anyway as for Yoshimo/Kachiko problem I'm quite sure that problem comes from my trick with separation, however what I can only tell is that if it is not some other anomaly then the ones that made this mod would need to take into account this old trick (it is known from the very beginning of Infinity Engine games).

Are you the same Manveru that wrote some nice tutorials on IESDP structures? Very good tutorials by the way. Anyway it's really funny to read your comments. Don't you really think software is made for hackers? What you propose is to prepare my mod for further hacking in advance. Well, this is funny, and really stupid. Moreover no one may introduce changes into my mod without preliminary discussion with me. Why don't you hack your SoA-ToB and go to BioWare forums complaining about technical problems and bugs in your game? Eventually if you want your NPCs behave the way you want just make your own mod and enjoy it and don't play TS. Thank you for your feedback.

Edited by Vlad, 22 June 2005 - 11:13 PM.

[hlidskialf]

Anyway as for Yoshimo/Kachiko problem I'm quite sure that problem comes from my trick with separation, however what I can only tell is that if it is not some other anomaly then the ones that made this mod would need to take into account this old trick (it is known from the very beginning of Infinity Engine games).

Are you the same Manveru that wrote some nice tutorials on IESDP structures? Anyway it's really funny to read your comments. Don't you really think software is made for hackers? What you propose is to prepare my mod for further hacking in advance. Well, this is funny, and really stupid. Moreover no one may introduce changes into my mod without preliminary discussion with me. Why don't you hack your SoA-ToB and go to BioWare forums complaining about technical problems and bugs in your game? Eventually if you want your NPCs behave the way you want just make your own mod and enjoy it and don't play TS.

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed there Vlad? That was totally uncalled for.

[Vlad]

Sorry I didn't mean to be offensive, just to clarify that I don't want people cheating and then complaining that something doesn't work in my mod. But please agree that *then the ones that made this mod would need to take into account this old trick* is very "unusual" comment.

Edited by Vlad, 23 June 2005 - 12:49 AM.

[Manveru]

Some explanations:

Hackers - those are not people that modify games data files (often called modders if Im not mistaken), or even an executable file itself (generally done by Crackers they "crack" the game or otherwise reverse engineer it, they often do it to avoid copyright security and other such features). Hacker is someone gaining the access to information that is not authorised to him by using computer science (and casually it refers to getting remote access to someone's computer). In conclussion no one had hacked your mod. I do not find myself in definition of cracker or hacker at all (I have never modifed BG/BG ToB executable or broken into other's people computer system).

As for "cheating" the game this way I have done, it is known since BG 1 was out in the market. I have found at some point that I do not need Kachiko in the party (she is a mage and I would anyway take Imoen into my party to serve as mage), but I wanted to have Yoshimo's betrayal quest. I signal only anomaly with which you as the author of mod can deal (by eliminating the anomaly) and other modders can notice potential problem for their mods, otherwise I would not spend my time writing on the forum (after all the anomaly I mentioned did not prevent me from continuing game).

In conclussion the best question to ask is: how to prevent the player from using this old trick ? I have no idea, I suppose that some manipulations with global variables may give the answer (for example, PC gets Kachiko to other area to kick her, when he does some global is set, and when this global is set then Yoshimo makes his departure as well regardless of the area where he is).

I think that it is all I can say on this subject. Good continuation in modding IE games!

[Eon Blue Apocalypse]

I have not yet played TS, but the way I understand it, Vlad added upon Yoshimo's betrayal quest, using a new character, Kachiko. Since the Kachiko character is now essential to that quest, I understand that removing Kachiko from your party must have as consequence Yoshimo leaving also. Vlad's post may have sounded curt, but essentialy I would agree with him.

[seanas]

As for "cheating" the game this way I have done, it is known since BG 1 was out in the market. I have found at some point that I do not need Kachiko in the party (she is a mage and I would anyway take Imoen into my party to serve as mage), but I wanted to have Yoshimo's betrayal quest. I signal only anomaly with which you as the author of mod can deal (by eliminating the anomaly) and other modders can notice potential problem for their mods, otherwise I would not spend my time writing on the forum (after all the anomaly I mentioned did not prevent me from continuing game).

In conclussion the best question to ask is: how to prevent the player from using this old trick ? I have no idea, I suppose that some manipulations with global variables may give the answer (for example, PC gets Kachiko to other area to kick her, when he does some global is set, and when this global is set then Yoshimo makes his departure as well regardless of the area where he is).

with regards to preventing players dumping one of kachiko or yoshimo, there already is a solution - if you do so, it breaks the game. as you discovered. the TS readme *does* make it clear that kachiko and yoshimo aren't separable.

there's no need for mod makers - or game developers - to have to save players from themselves. if you want to do something that breaks the game, that's yr choice. just don't expect a great deal of sympathy when you start saying 'help, i broke your mod. now it doesn't work!'

[Sir BillyBob]

Agreed. You won't see me "fixing" a problem you deliberately created. The readme and walkthroughs of TS have always stated that the two work together, you can't seperate them. Cheating to force the issue is up to the player but don't expect others to help you when you break something by doing this. Vlad may be too blunt with his English but he is justified in my view with his logic.

[horred the plague]

Agreed.  You won't see me "fixing" a problem you deliberately created.  The readme and walkthroughs of TS have always stated that the two work together, you can't seperate them.  Cheating to force the issue is up to the player but don't expect others to help you when you break something by doing this.  Vlad may be too blunt with his English but he is justified in my view with his logic.

Here here, I agree. :thumb: You break it, you buy it.

Edited by horred the plague, 23 June 2005 - 08:09 PM.

[SimDing0]

Out of interest, what happens if either Yoshimo or Kachiko are killed?

[NiGHTMARE]

Erm, did you guys actually read Manveru's posts before jumping down his throat?

He isn't proposing that the possibility the party doesn't have Kachiko in it be taken into account, he's asking that players be prevented from seperating them in the first place.

[seanas]

yeah, i read his post nightmare. to paraphrase, manveru said 'i broke the mod, now it's broken', to which i replied: well, yes.

to paraphrase slightly less, manveru said, 'using a well-known BG1 cheat i separated kachiko and yoshimo, now the mod is broken. users should be prevented from doing so'. to which everyone has replied - they already are; all the documentation says 'if you split kachiko and yoshimo, you break the mod - you split them, now the mod is broken. QED.'

if the question is actually 'modmakers should code in the expectation that players cheat and with the intent of stopping them cheating', then my answer in an unequivocal NO. if a user wants to hack a mod - any mod - to work they way s/he wants to, rather than the way the mod maker intended, that's the user's business, and no-one elses.

IF manveru recoded his install so that kachiko and yoshimo could be separated, that'd be up to him. it won't get released or distributed, cos the mod-maker has exercised his moral rights to insist the mod exists in the way he intended; however, the user's fair use rights enable s/he to alter it *on their own installation* however they choose.

and i for one get really cranky with mod-makers (and game designers and game compaines and IP owners in general) who attempt to restrict the individual's fair use rights to use or install a particular product (and yes, here i am pointing fingers at the proposal in the cross-banter mod to try and prevent multiple romances amongst mod NPCs).

so... i'm not planning to 'fix' TS to stop ppl splitting kachiko and yoshimo, as they already are warned, by clear warnings in the documentation, that doing so will break TS completely. if they persist in doing so and then break it, that's their choice - but they were warned what would happen, and when the inevitable happens, it's on their own heads, not ours as designers/ creators/ bug-fixers. at the same time, i flat out refuse to change things in order to stop ppl 'cheating': if, after fair warning, you go ahead and make changes in a mod, that's yr choice. again, yr on yr own if it goes wrong, but i won't be stopping you, cos we're all grown-ups (except the children, of course ) and we can make our own decisions once we've been provided with the necessary information - even the 'wrong' decisions.

as for what happens if kachiko or yoshimo dies - then the other one leaves the party. quite possibly not an ideal solution, but it's the one the mod-maker intended.

(sorry, rant over now)

[Manveru]

One small comment on this: what will happen if user kicks one of bound NPCs from the party when it is unintentionally split between two areas (for example you have 6 person party and 3 of them are in Ribald's shop and other 3 are outside, it happens for many players to go to shop only with NPCs that have stuff to sell/buy and leave the rest outside, you kick Kachiko or Yoshimo in Ribald shop because it is strategic place where you count to come back in future)? it is not impossible, and I think that it should not be neglected, some players may not know about trick I have mentioned, in this case they may learn too late about the fact that it caused an error. Even if they have read documentation it does not mean that they will understand that a game mechanics works this or that way. Error does not arrive at once.

I know from experience that most of players do not like to read documentation (they read it when problems actually arrive), in general perception game serves for entertainment, and people instinctively reject any more complicated thing than just playing game. Adultness has nothing to do in this. If software developpers were describing in the documentation possible anomalies instead of making the program anomaly-proof most of software on the market would be hardly exploitable at once.

Of course modders do what they want, those are their mods and their right to add/delete/modify whatever they want there, however my right was to express my oppinion. You have your oppinion and that is fair enough for me, however some other person by expressing his oppinion was making some not nice remarks, if he does not like what I have said that much he should rather pm or email me instead of using strong words on forum (if he wants to use them of course).

Personally I have a lot of respect to work of modders of IE because I find that IE scene had gone through very big evolution since I have left it: the number of mods and their quality has increased significantly, people mastered technology and exploited the engine as best as they can.

[Sir BillyBob]

Well then, the only answer from any of us would be to have someone add a section into the FAQ on user fuckups. Er, maybe a better word should be used. I have been tempted to add such a thing to DSotSC because there are so many posts of people saying "Did I screwup" and the answer is always yes.

Some known issues get posted in the readme files, but of course, no one reads them. I hate to think how many people have posted "I added Tactics to BP and now it doesn't work". Duh!

So maybe Manvero has at least opened up the idea that such a document or segment of the readme should exist in each mod.