Jump to content


Photo

The villains


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#21 Tom

Tom

    moT

  • Member
  • 1403 posts

Posted 16 June 2005 - 08:57 PM

He was punished justly for an act which could have destroyed a whole elven city and even more.

View Post


Thats a whole nother argument... I personally consider his punishment 'evil', death would have been fairer.

The problem with restraint is:

I've killed 30 people. I need to kill this one to. BUT IT'S GONE TOO FAR!!! I MUST STOP NOW. *gives self up*

Or, to put it another way, where is the fun in combating a villain who, when it comes to the crunch, decides against going through with his plan. Why would he show restraint on lesser issues, and then still go through with the big plan? It would be no fun zonking Irenicus if, at the Tree of Life, he suddenly decided he had gone too far and gave himself up.


I think what Feanor may have been getting at when he said 'restraint' was, rather than trying to destroy the whole world, the villian didnt have quite such diabolical plans. True, it would be pointless to spare the life of an innocent person and then destory the world the next day, and it raises the point of how evil does a villian have to be, and how far do his plans have to extend, to warrant even a decent story for the game to follow?
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the general sat and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side.

#22 Child

Child

    The new day is a great big fish.

  • Member
  • 233 posts

Posted 17 June 2005 - 05:11 AM

Yeah but once you have killed 1 person, killing another is not quite such a big deal, if you acted selfishly the first time...so things snowball. After 2000, whats another 40 hey?
And in ideas of restraint: I'll only kill 35 people..any more and it has gone too far?

In addition, a villain who only commits fraud isn't much of a villain. Certainly not worth going around bashing thousands of monsters to catch up with.
-C

Dovienya se sagain tovya

Sene sovya caba'donde ain dovienya

#23 -Aristothenes-

-Aristothenes-
  • Guest

Posted 17 June 2005 - 08:06 AM

You're absolutely right.
Politicians and CEOs who embezzle from the public purse and abuse trust should not be put to death, or jailed.
They should just do some community service instead.

#24 Child

Child

    The new day is a great big fish.

  • Member
  • 233 posts

Posted 17 June 2005 - 08:17 AM

You're absolutely right.
Politicians and CEOs who embezzle from the public purse and abuse trust should not be put to death, or jailed.
They should just do some community service instead.

View Post


Nah, ure getting me wrong. They should be reduced to living in poverty... but its not worth carving through monsters to do it. Its just so common and expected of politicans that its almost a requirement...
-C

Dovienya se sagain tovya

Sene sovya caba'donde ain dovienya

#25 Tom

Tom

    moT

  • Member
  • 1403 posts

Posted 17 June 2005 - 02:16 PM

I'll only kill 35 people..any more and it has gone too far?

View Post


Yes as a whole there isnt much difference between 35 and 36, but after killing 35 people I think that even 1 more is bad enough. Thats my opinion though, I do see what you mean about things snowballing.
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the general sat and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side.

#26 -Quiet Lurker-

-Quiet Lurker-
  • Guest

Posted 18 June 2005 - 08:28 AM

Yeah but once you have killed 1 person, killing another is not quite such a big deal, if you acted selfishly the first time...so things snowball. After 2000, whats another 40 hey?
And in ideas of restraint: I'll only kill 35 people..any more and it has gone too far?

In addition, a villain who only commits fraud isn't much of a villain. Certainly not worth going around bashing thousands of monsters to catch up with.

View Post


A tragic villain does not kill because s/he can, s/he kills because s/he believes it is necessary. An example would be Trias the Betrayer from Planescape: Torment, if it takes tainting Mount Celestia with the essence of pure evil and kill countless celestials to make them realize that they cannot just ignore the suffering in the Primes, so be it.

Another would be the Transcendent One from Planescape: Torment, why should he suffer an eternity in the Lower Planes for things he doesn't even remember doing since he was severed from the Original Incarnation? He only kills those who threaten his secret Fortress of Regrets.

These villains do "evil," or evil as we see it because they believe it necessary, not for the sake of being evil itself. :devil:

#27 Alandrea

Alandrea

    Sweet and Innocent

  • Member
  • 262 posts

Posted 07 July 2005 - 05:42 PM

I spent the whole of Icewind Dale II feeling that my side was the villainous one. I wanted to join the Cambions, I felt that they were in the right.

If they do have that sort of thing in this game it would be nice if you could do something about it rather than just feeling bad after you kill the villain(s). I mean, even if you could just do something like erect a memorial for them. ?These people had a good idea, but they messed it up, as you can see, because they?re dead, because I killed them, yes.?

Besides, I?ve never felt that the heroes were really ?good?. I mean, the monsters just standing there, not bothering anyone anymore than a human might, and you intrude on its land and kill it. That doesn?t apply to everything but a good enough part. That?s why all heroes are evil inside.
~*kitty*~

You must gather your pants before venturing forth

The lunatics are running this asylum.

#28 Archmage Silver

Archmage Silver

    Master of The Art

  • Member
  • 6654 posts

Posted 08 July 2005 - 01:28 AM

Well, IWD II may feel like that... at least if you just play a greedy evil party who takes rewards first and kills after. Although I somehow felt that Isair & Madae were right at some points. And about heroes... yes, they are not "good" in the very meaning of the word, take Elminster the Sage for example, he kills evil without any mercy or thought for it, he wants to keep the Realms more secure and organized, but he is not good. Just some aspect of Neutral, like most heroes. Paladins? I do not know about them. Maybe they are Good because they believe in their cause and do only what they see as good? Even if their views are wrong at some places? 'Tis a hard question to answer.

#29 Feanor

Feanor

    The Elven Lord

  • Member
  • 1808 posts

Posted 08 July 2005 - 05:29 AM

Personally I would like to see a villain somehow like Jarlaxle. This fellow can't be considered good, but neither evil. He is just a pragmatic opportunist. Won't have too many remorses in doing something evil to achieve his goals, but, if he had a choice, he would prefer to avoid acting with cruelty. For instance, he spared Drizzt and his friends in more than one occasion, although he would have had a lot to gain from bringing their heads to Menzoberranzan.

#30 Archmage Silver

Archmage Silver

    Master of The Art

  • Member
  • 6654 posts

Posted 08 July 2005 - 07:59 AM

Of course he felt that he owed at least that much to Zaknafein, but that already tells that he isn't the typical drow, thinking about debts to dead. His alignment? I don't really think there could be one for him, except chaotic neutral, but he isn't like that either.

#31 Feanor

Feanor

    The Elven Lord

  • Member
  • 1808 posts

Posted 09 July 2005 - 02:07 AM

Of course he felt that he owed at least that much to Zaknafein, but that already tells that he isn't the typical drow, thinking about debts to dead. His alignment? I don't really think there could be one for him, except chaotic neutral, but he isn't like that either.

View Post



His motivations we cannot know, but I think he is a perfect example of an opponent who is not a maniac crazy for power like Irenicus or Matron Mother Baenre.

#32 Vita Muerte

Vita Muerte

    BG2 Addict

  • Member
  • 80 posts

Posted 10 July 2005 - 11:40 PM

Personally I would like to see a villain somehow like Jarlaxle. This fellow can't be considered good, but neither evil.

View Post


Ditto. I'm tired of having to fight clichés over and over again. "Evil" after all is as subjective as beauty- it's all in the eye of the beholder. The consequences to our actions are often more complex than those in one-dimensional fairy tales and silly romance novels. What some people might consider downright wrong, other people might consider heroic.

I would really like to see a villain that is conflicted with those qualities and flaws that make us human, and not some hate-filled killing machine.

#33 -Quiet Lurker-

-Quiet Lurker-
  • Guest

Posted 14 July 2005 - 07:06 PM

Evil is not necessarily a requirement for being a villain, nor is the so called "human-like" qualities, for example SHODAN from System Shock 2 is definitely an effective villain.

In my humble opinion the qualities of an effective villain is as followed:
1) Presence: The most effective villains are ever present. They make their presence known very early in the game. You can see their minions everywhere. Weak is the villain who arrives on the Facinus Ex Machina Express more than halfway into the game without rhyme or reason.
For example:
Irenicus (Baldur's Gate II) - He makes his entrance almost immediately into the game, despite the fact that <CHARNAME> doesn't encounter him until s/he gets to Spellhold, the three dream sequences and two cut scenes keeps Irenicus' presence in the game.

Now compare Irenicus with pathetic villain wanna-bes such as:

Heurodis (Neverwinter Nights: SoU) -
Mephistopheles (Neverwinter Nights: HoU) - "Greetings <CHARNAME>, we haven't met for the first two thirds of the game, so you don't know me. Now I shall turn you into stone/banish you to hell where you can spend the remaining third of the game and there's nothing you can do about it. Furthermore we shall not meet again until the endgame. <Insert Generic Evil Laugh Here>"

It's no contest who is the greater villain. :closedeyes: In short the most important quality of a villain is presence.


2) It's personal: Not all roleplaying games has a goody-good Paladin as the main protagonist. Thus the inevitable collision between a megalomaniacal villain and the protagonist may not always fit together like a lock and key (especially when the protagonist is an evil or flawed antihero). However, if the villain has some kind of personal vendetta against the protagonist (or at least a reason to act against the protagonist in particular), it makes the conflict protagonist/villain conflict much more interesting. In short, the effectiveness of a villain is very dependent on the worthiness of the villain as an antagonist to the protagonist.

For example:
Transcent One (Planescape: Torment) - Now here is a villain who is only interested in the Nameless One (the protagonist), since the Nameless One is the only one who can threaten his existence. The conflict is as inevitable as it is reasonable and fits in nicely with the storyline.
Daggoth Ur (Morrowind) - The protagonist is the prophesied Nerevar Reborn who is being used as a pawn by Azura and Vivec to usurp him, since he cannot act against Azura directly, the only option is the slay the new incarnations of Nerevar.

Now compare the previous two with (I think I'm picking on Neverwinter Nights a bit too much):

Morag (Neverwinter Nights) - Nasher: "<CHARNAME>, here is a pot helmet and a stick. Go kill the lizard queen who you never met before, for your duty to the city to which you've just arrived." <_<
Valsharess (Neverwinter Nights: HoU) - Halaster: "<CHARNAME>, I have forcefully conscripted you into my service, go slay some drow who you never met before because I say so." :angry:

Essentially, without the "personal touch," a villain just cannot achieve the potential of all a villain can be. Would Trias the Betrayer be as great a villain if he didn't wrong the Nameless One and simply just told him how to get to the Fortress of Regrets? Not likely.


3) Motivation: What makes a villain tick? Great villains can come from two extreme polarities, the completely understandable and the completely ununderstandable. What is understandable? For the purposes of argument I define understandable as being more humanlike in nature. Essentially, Lawful Evil villains who have certain quirks (i.e. penchant for sparing the defenseless) are more understandable than Chaotic villains that that simply destroy.
Understandable:
As human beings we like to delude ourselves by think us as moral species :glare: , thus we can identify more with villains motivated by things such as:
Twisted sense of benevolence - Ex: Trias the Betrayer (Planescape: Torment), The Master (Fallout)
Self preservation - Ex: The Transcendent One (Planescape: Torment)
Twisted sense of justice (i.e. Vengeance) - Ex: Irenicus (Baldur's Gate II), Daggoth Ur (Morrowind)

and less with villains motivated by things such as (though there is some enjoyment in smiting them if playing a goody-two-shoes character):
Pure hatred: Commander Damas (Neverwinter Nights) [I consider him to be a villain for trying to commit genocide :angry: ]
Madness for power: Ex: Melissan (Baldur's Gate II: ToB)


Ununderstandable:
What these villains lack in empathy for their plight, they make up for with mystery and horror. These villains kill without hatred, destroy without enjoyment in destruction. In short, psychopathic in nature. Examples of these are SHODAN (System Shock II) and The Overmind (Star Craft), literary examples include Dracula (Bram Stoker) and IT (Stephen King). Of course, these villains must maintain a constant level of Presence to be effective.


4) Placement and Distribution: Where is the villain on the totem pole of villains? How often and when do you encounter these villains? As in almost all things, timing is essential.
Here's an example of what NOT to do:
Neverwinter Nights (Practically a handbook in how NOT to make villains):
Having Aribeth, Maugrim and Morag almost in a row really decreased the effectiveness of all three. Pawns make poor villains: While Aribeth is probably the most effective villain of the three (having a decent Presence and Motivation), making her a pawn of Morag not only decreased her own effectiveness as a villain but also Morag's (who lacks both lacks both Presence and Motivation). Poor Maugrim in the middle practically gets ignored. :(



By the way, in my opinion, Jarlaxle is Lawful Evil, since he follows his own code of honor (not necessarily in tune with the law of society, but that's the way most Lawful Evil characters are), and dislikes meaningless destruction.

#34 Tom

Tom

    moT

  • Member
  • 1403 posts

Posted 15 July 2005 - 04:44 PM

I agree with all of what you said, except for the personal aspect. True, for a game to have an effective 'evil', path there would have to be some personal aspect (either on behalf of the villian or the protagonist), as this is likely to be one of the few motivations an evil character may have to stop the villian. Not always though; say the villian wanted to take over the world and the protagonist was trying to stop said villian, perhaps the protagonist wants to stop the villian only to usurp his/her position (e.g ToB.) However the hero may simply want to save the world because he is a goody-good paladin type, and this makes little difference on the villian himself. What I'm trying to say is that the villian's intentions, be they personally directed at the protagonist, or on a much larer scale, dont affect so much the villian themself but the story as a whole. People may find it easier to immerse themselves in a game where they are fleeing from a villian out to get them, or they may find it easier to immerse themselves in a game where they are questing to stop a villian from plunging the world into darkness (such as Zelda OoT, a great game.)

Edited by Tom, 15 July 2005 - 04:45 PM.

Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the general sat and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side.

#35 femalepaladin

femalepaladin
  • Member
  • 10 posts

Posted 23 July 2005 - 04:07 AM

On a different tangent. Would you like a serious Bad Guy; like Darth Vader. Or A funny one like Dr Evil. Sometimes a comical evil boss adds a nice touch. :whistling:
"you are the Diet Coke of Evil. just one calorie, not even enough" Dr Evil.

#36 Feanor

Feanor

    The Elven Lord

  • Member
  • 1808 posts

Posted 23 July 2005 - 06:00 AM

On a different tangent. Would you like a serious Bad Guy; like Darth Vader. Or A funny one like Dr Evil. Sometimes a comical evil boss adds a nice touch. :whistling:

View Post


Or a middle way character like Jarlaxle :D (yeah, I like this fellow :D )

#37 Delight

Delight
  • Member
  • 660 posts

Posted 23 July 2005 - 06:54 AM

I think that a head of paladin order would make a great villain.
...

#38 Archmage Silver

Archmage Silver

    Master of The Art

  • Member
  • 6654 posts

Posted 23 July 2005 - 07:33 AM

Halaster: "<CHARNAME>, I have forcefully conscripted you into my service, go slay some drow who you never met before because I say so." mad.gif

Well.... Halaster really is mad. What he did in NWN isn't so out of character for him.

Hmm... Jarlaxle Baenre. The opportunist. I think he would more interested in double-crossing his masters if the pc offered him something more spectacular. It could work... though I don't find it likely that anyone could really think Jarlaxle a villain in the end. :D

#39 Feanor

Feanor

    The Elven Lord

  • Member
  • 1808 posts

Posted 23 July 2005 - 07:44 AM

Hmm... Jarlaxle Baenre. The opportunist. I think he would more interested in double-crossing his masters if  the pc offered him something more spectacular. It could work... though I don't find it likely that anyone could really think Jarlaxle a villain in the end. :D

View Post


That if only the PC has what to offer. Even he won't be so bold to double-cross Matron Mother Baenre. :D
And I would think of him more as chaotic neutral. He is not cruel as most drow, but definitely can't be considered good. Bregan D'Aerthe is not a touristic agency, after all.

#40 femalepaladin

femalepaladin
  • Member
  • 10 posts

Posted 23 July 2005 - 06:29 PM

i would like the main bad guy to make referals to previous Bioware games, then his assistant remind him of the royalty payments they have to make when he does.

"why make billions when we could make ...... millions."
"a billion is more than a million, dumb-ass"
"alright scotty, .....zip-it!"


am i being clear?
"you are the Diet Coke of Evil. just one calorie, not even enough" Dr Evil.