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BGT-WeiDU: we need to "protect" several NPCs


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#1 King Diamond

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 08:16 AM

I'm talking about: XZAR, MONTARON, IMOEN, VICONIA, MINSC, JAHEIRA, KHALID, EDWIN - all those NPC that appear (live or dead but still reffered to) in SoA.

Shouldn't we prevent them from being dead during BG1 chapter? As it's done with Imoen in the Irenicus dungeon (can you ever imagine that she can be killed in bg1 part?!!! and what to do next?). When she reached 1 HP point she says something and escapes.
The same could be done easily for those others.

I think it would be right to do that.

Otherwise I can't even imagine what to do if Edwin would've been dead during BGT processing... What shall we do with it in SoA? Drop the entire game chapter? Or two? :wacko: Impossible....

Everything goes logically perfect in a proposing case. f.e. Edwin takes heavy damage, but having special effect of minimal HP=1 applied he quickly says "ByBy, darling" and escapes a battlefield in panic untill we'll meet him later in the Docks.


What do everybody think about that?



P.S. Forgot about GARRICK, QUAYLE and TIAX too.....and MINSC talks about he saw how DYNAHEIR died too...

P.S.S. And FALDORN too....

Edited by King Diamond, 09 June 2005 - 08:51 AM.

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#2 hlidskialf

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 08:58 AM

As in the BP version of BGT, I think they should either stay dead (in the case of Jaheira, etc...) or like Edwin and Xzar in the original game you can even say "Aren't you dead?" and have it dismissed. Seriously, in a world where resurrection is possible it's not too outlandish. The only non-kill the plot requires is Imoen.

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#3 masteraleph

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 11:59 AM

Would it be possible to provide specific options for each?

Basically:

Edwin- if he's permanently dead in BG1, he should be brought back in BG2 with the standard dialog, most of which makes sense ("I won't work for a red wizard"; "aren't you supposed to be dead", etc).

Xzar- Ditto.

Montaron- You'll never talk to him. Presumably however Xzar came back, he helped Montaron along.

Minsc- if he's dead, leave him there. Not quest specific and not confusing...if he's dead he's dead.

Jaheira- Ditto. It's your fault after all.

Viconia- Ditto.

Khalid- Maybe have a dialog with Jaheira confused as to how he's alive now. Or else one to explain that he was resurrected (if she wasn't in the party upon transition).

Imoen- Plot vital. Maybe a quick dialog explaining that Irenicus brought her back for some odd reason.

If you want, Minsc, Jaheira, and Khalid all fit that actually. "Ireincus brought us back because he wanted to experiment on the allies of CHARNAME and question them, blah blah blah.

Most of the NPCs do reappear in some form or another actually- an explanation for Dynaheir needs to be there if she died beforehand. Quayle in the circus tent. Tiax in Spellhold. Corran and Safana in one of those areas that pops up after you escape the Underdark. There are probably others who I'm forgetting.

#4 Eon Blue Apocalypse

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 12:31 PM

In my opinion, with all but those that are mainplot-essential, if they are dead, then they are dead, it's your fault if you let it happen. One option could be to let outcome depend on the type of death. Resurectable dead 'powerful' npcs like Edwin could reappear with an "aren't you dead" line, but smashed to goo npcs would not reappear. Such continuity would be great. If you kill Quayle, then Aerie shouldn't appear either.

#5 Ascension64

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 04:58 PM

It would be be extremely BAD if Edwin were to say "ByeBye Darling" in the middle of a fight with Sarevok, for example! Therefore, I don't necessarily agree with the immortalisation of NPCs in BG1 in such a manner.

With regards to the permanent death scenarios, I would also think that the world of resurrection and the gods lends itself to many possibilities that are not farfetched. Who is to say the Red Wizards did not find Edwin's corpse moments after you left him and snatched him away. However, it does lend to problems concerning your relations with organisations and such. Minsc and Jaheira do kind of stay dead unless they were not in your party. Again, their organisations are powerful enough to whisk them up...and what about Elminster? He seems a sneaky fellow that follows you around. Any chance he could be picking up your pieces? And don't forget the fight with Faldorn in SoA, although she can never exist either. Unfortunately, if this were to occur, Cernd will never get his grove, I think. I don't have any ideas for Imoen yet.

Nevertheless, references to such NPCs in SoA do present a problem as KD correctly points out, unless you have been completely brain-washed by Irenicus' spells. Not sure what can be done about those, because that would require much hunting and modification, and compatibility-wise this could create massive problems.

Implementation-wise: no, not now or the near future. The ideas need to be fleshed out first, although one possibility is to resurrect them in front of your face, as Bardez originally did, and make up some story. This risks increasing the length of the cutscene again, because of the vast amount of NPCs.

However, do remember that the current transition is totally absurd. NPCs will not just 'run away' at the end of the game, so it's up to people to come with something that works better.

My 2.3 cents.

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#6 masteraleph

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 11:49 PM

Ooo! Remembered another important one- Faldorn. She definitely can't die, as if she did the Druid Grove quest is broken. Though her organization could, again, have a fair amount of pull and ability.

#7 --Nerik--

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Posted 10 June 2005 - 12:21 AM

My thoughts:

First, the BG2 joinable NPCs:

Imoen - needs to be kept alive (somehow), unless someone does a major mod where here role can be taken by another BG1 mage :o. One trick would be that if she dies, the dead one turns into a dead doppelganger - you don't find out what actually happened to her until the begining of BG2 :) (this idea could be used for someone else, but shouldn't be used more than once, if at all).

Jaheira & Minsc - if they permanently die prior to BG2 OR are not in the party - then they stay dead/are not present in the dungeon.

Viconia - if she dies permanently, then her place on the stake is either empty (delete the whole scene - or she is replaced by someone else) - actually, considering how soon you can get her after leaving Irenicus' dungeon, I suggest that if she is in the party at the end of BG1, she should end up in one of cages in the dungeon, and the gov dist. scene be either removed, or have her kidnapped in Athkatla and dragged off to be burnt.

Edwin - a lot more complicated, as he's needed for the thief stronghold quests - one solution is that towards the end of BG1 he takes his leave ("I have business in the south etc.") The more complicated option is that he stays with the party and ends up in a cage, and his role in the thieve's guild is replaced by someone else.

The BG1 NPCs that show up (or are mentioned) in BG2 but are not joinable (except by mod).

Khalid & Dynaheir - If they die prior to BG2 then references to them in the dungeon (Minsc's statement, Khalid's body) should be removed Minsc's and Jaheira's dialogue would need to reflect this as well.

Xzar and Montaron - should leave the party prior to the beginning of BG1 under orders from their superiors - if they have been travelling with CHARNAME for a while then CHARNAME should have a reasonable idea who these 'superiors' are and should be cool with it, and should understand why ignoring such a 'request' is a bad idea :).

Quayle - again, should leave on some pre-text (he's just inherited a circus). If he died, either the whole circus quest vanishes, or just he & Aerie vanish (possibly replace Aerie with a non-joinable commoner?).

Faldorn - gets summomed away to the Trademeet druid grove - if dead gets replaced - perhaps by one of the other Shadow druids from BG1, if they're still alive!

Tiax - um.. either he wanders off prior to BG2, or, he is present in a cage "How is mighty Tiax going to rule from this cage - he commands that you release him", and gets grabbed by the cowled wizards at the same time that Imoen is :)

Garrick - well, he doesn't do a lot in BG2, if he was in BG1 he should be found dead in the dungeon (or as a twisted thing in a bell jar), if he died in BG1 he stays dead, in either case, his appearance in BG2 could be removed.

Coran & Safana - Safana's dialogue implies some sort of grudge with CHARNAME - so maybe she has a row and leaves prior to BG2, and love-smitten Coran follows her.

Ajantis - as his only role in BG2 is to have his corpse IDed, and not even by CHARNAME, then I think, like Garrick, if he dies, he stays dead, otherwise his body is found in the dungeon, and the dead paladin that Keldorn or Anomen ID is given a different name.

BG1 NPCs that don't show in BG2 (the tutorial doesn't count).

By default, if any of these die, they stay dead, otherwise their corpse, or twisted, barely alive body is found in Irenicus' dungeon.

However, in at least two cases (Alora & Kivan) there are mods that provide them as joinable NPCs in BG2, in which case they should stay with the party (and be found in a cage in the dungeon) - the mods may need a bit of modding for this.

Ok, with hindsight, maybe just magically keeping required NPCs alive is a lot easier :)

Charles