38 replies to this topic

[discharger12]

Are there any other planets of note within the Toril solar-system, or even in farther reaches? Is it even possible to go to these places?

What confuses me is that you see people from other places such as those in the Valygar-Inner-Plane thing. (Can't remember exact name) Are they from different universes, planets, or just different planes? Which brings up the Torment area. Is that just a different plane... or?

All these planes and planets are so confusing! Between the Nine-Hells, the Abyss and Sigil, my head hurts. :closedeyes: (And btw, don't bother with explaining the Nine-Hells/Abyss thing. I've been reading on it)

As a last thing- is it possible that Earth exists within the D&D Universe? Are there any books that mention Earth being reachable?

Edit: The title of this thread may be a misnomer. The subject changed a bit.

Edited by discharger12, 06 June 2005 - 03:22 PM.

[NiGHTMARE]

The D&D universe isn't quite the same as our own.

What we would called a "solar system" is known as a "crystal sphere" in the D&D universe. A crystal sphere consists of planets orbitting a sun, etc just as a solar system, only it's all contained with - as the name implies - an enormous sphere.

The area inside a sphere is generally known as "....space". So, for example, the Forgotten Realm's sphere is Realmspace, the Dragonlance sphere is Krynnspace, and the Greyhawk sphere is Greyspace.

Including Aber-Toril (the world the Forgotten Realms setting takes place on), there are eight planets in Realmspace. In order from nearest to the sun to furthest away, these are Anadia, Coliar, Toril (also known as Aber-Toril), Karpri, Chandos, Glyth, Garden, and H'Catha.

Every single planet in the system is home to some form of sentient life. A unique subrace of halflings live on Anadia; aarakocra (humanoid bird creatures) and lizard men on Coliar; Toril we know well; aquatic elves on Karpri; humans, dwarves and orcs on Chandos; mind flayers and their slaves on Glyth; pirates of numerous species on Garden (none are native, however); and finally, beholders on H'Catha.

Several moons are also inhabited, including Toril's moon, Selune, though generally the inhabitants of moons aren't native. Creatures even live on and around the sun, these being natives of the Elemental Plane of Fire, to and from which there are countless portals.

(If you're interested in knowing more about any of these worlds or moons, let me know and I'll post the info).

Portals generally exist on various points of the sphere, allowing spacefaring vessels (known as "Spelljammers" and beings to enter and exit the sphere. Not all portals are two-way, and not all are permanent. A few spheres have no known portals, effectively blocking entrance or exit.

While the inside of a sphere does consist of vacuum, outside the spheres is a substance known as "phlogiston". I'm not sure about the properties of this substance other than if it were to leak into a sphere, it'd end up killing everyone inside (I can try to look up further details if you're really interested ).

All the crystal spheres exist in the Prime Material Plane. Places such as the Nine Hells, the Abyss, the Elemental Planes, etc exist outside the Prime Material Plane, and if you like can be considered other universes or dimensions. The laws of nature on the planes often varies than those of the Prime Material (time runs faster/slow, etc).

It is possible to travel from a Prime Material World to another plane, and then back to a different Prime Material World. However, the process of doing this is much more complicated (not to mention dangerous) than simply travelling back to the world from which you originated.

While various teleportation spells do exist, none are powerful enough to take a person directly from one Crystal Sphere to another - such a spell would probably have to be at least 15th level! Travelling to another planet within the same sphere is another matter entirely; the infamous archmage Elminster even has a hidden hideaway on Coliar, the second planet.

Considering our universe doesn't consist of crystal spheres, clearly our Earth isn't supposed to exist in the D&D universe. However, earth was a campaign setting in first edition D&D, and many D&D gods are taken from real world pantheons. It's therefore likely that there is an "alternate earth" somewhere in the D&D universe, though what earth time period is contemporary with the current time period of the D&D worlds is unclear. What is clear that on the D&D version of earth, gods and magic are not only known to definitely exist, but routinely make their presence felt.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 06 June 2005 - 06:32 PM.

[fallen_demon]

Edit: NiGHTMARE beat me to it with a much more informitave post, this info is now worthless

yes.

Other planets exist on the prime material plane. Krynn (the planet in dragonlance and where the knights in the planar sphere are from) is one of these planets, as is Toril. /I'm not sure how they got there if it only travels planes though. I've also heard NiGHTMARE mention that Earth actually was a 1e campaign setting.

Edited by fallen_demon, 06 June 2005 - 04:32 PM.

[Andyr]

Elminster travelled to Earth to talk to Ed Greenwood (the guy who created him and FR) in some publication, though I am told it was fairly tongue in cheek. But yeah, going by that perhaps travel to Earth would be possible.

Most of D&D is ripped from various mythologies, too, so you could perhaps argue that it is because they are considered 'true' in some sense.

[discharger12]

What we would called a "solar system" is known as a "crystal sphere" in the D&D universe.  A crystal sphere consists of planets orbitting a sun, etc just as a solar system, only it's all contained with - as the name implies - an enormous sphere.

From what I can tell "Crystal sphere" is not only just a different name for "solar system," but means that something is totally different from our solar systems.. am I right?

The area inside a sphere is generally known as "....space".  So, for example, the Forgotten Realm's sphere is Realmspace, the Dragonlance sphere is Krynnspace, and the Greyhawk sphere is Greyspace.

Are these different worlds commonly known to Toril's people, or are different planets considered myths?

Including Aber-Toril (the world the Forgotten Realms setting takes place on), there are eight planets in Realmspace.  In order from nearest to the sun to furthest away, these are Anadia, Coliar, Toril (also known as Aber-Toril), Karpri, Chandos, Glyth, Garden, and H'Catha.

Every single planet in the system is home to some form of sentient life.  A unique subrace of halflings live on Anadia; aarakocra (humanoid bird creatures) and lizard men on Coliar; Toril we know well; aquatic elves on Karpri; humans, dwarves and orcs on Chandos; mind flayers and their slaves on Glyth; pirates of numerous species on Garden (none are native, however); and finally, beholders on H'Catha.

Does this mean that different races from various planets migrated to Toril... or just the opposite?

Creatures even live on and around the sun, these being natives of the Elemental Plane of Fire, to and from which there are countless portals.

Are these portals accessible only by the Plane of Fire natives? Otherwise, wouldn't people just die without some type of protection?

Portals generally exist on various points of the sphere, allowing spacefaring vessels (known as "Spelljammers" and beings to enter and exit the sphere.  Not all portals are two-way, and not all are permanent.  A few spheres have no known portals, effectively blocking entrance or exit.

So a prime example of this would be Sigil, right?

While the inside of a sphere does consist of vacuum, outside the spheres is a substance known as "phlogiston".  I'm not sure about the properties of this substance other than if it were to leak into a sphere, it'd end up killing everyone inside (I can try to look up further details if you're really interested ).

Oh, yes! If you're not too busy.

All the crystal spheres exist in the Prime Material Plane.  Places such as the Nine Hells, the Abyss, the Elemental Planes, etc exist outside the Prime Material Plane, and if you like can be considered other universes or dimensions.  The laws of nature on the planes often varies than those of the Prime Material (time runs faster/slow, etc).

Very much like in The Chronicles of Narnia. So, theoretically, Narnia may be just another plane within the D&D Universe. After all, many of the D&D creatures exist in that world.

While various teleportation spells do exist, none are powerful enough to take a person directly from one Crystal Sphere to another - such a spell would probably have to be at least 15th level!  Travelling to another planet within the same sphere is another matter entirely; the infamous archmage Elminster even has a hidden hideaway on Coliar, the second planet.

Which totally brings up an entirely new topic. It irritates me that something could be strong enough to threaten someone like Elminster, yet no one will consider making a BGIII still on the same story because the PC is too powerful. Well, I still can't cast something as high as 15th level spells or even make my own magical items! (By myself without Cespenar, etc.)

(If you're interested in knowing more about any of these worlds or moons, let me know and I'll post the info).

I'm particularly interested on Kapri, Chandos, and H'Catha.

-If Kapri is home to Aquatic Elves, does this mean that the planet is almost (if not all) water?

-If Orcs and Dwarves live on Chandos, do they live in co-existance?

-Why is it that H'Catha is home to Beholders, when beholders have their home in the Abyss? (Or was it the Nine-Hells?)

And lastly, is it just a coincidence that none of the planets are inhospitable? Or are some planets better at supporting, say beholders then... something like humans?

Sorry for all the questions, this is just incredibly interesting!

Thanks for all the answers!

Edited by discharger12, 07 June 2005 - 02:55 PM.

[NiGHTMARE]

From what I can tell "Crystal sphere" is not only just a different name for "solar system," but means that something is totally different from our solar systems.. am I right?

No, a crystal sphere is the same thing as a solar system (planets orbitting one or more stars, etc), except it's inside an enormous sphere.

Are these different worlds commonly known to Toril's people, or are different planets considered myths?

Spelljamming is relatively well known in the Forgotten Realms, especially in the Sword Coast region, since there's are large Spelljammer ports in both Waterdeep and Calimport. Obviously the nearer a sphere is to Realmspace, the more will be known about it; Realmspace's nearest neighbours are Greyspace, Krynnspace, Winterspace and Spiralspace (also called Bralspace).

Much of the D&D universe is unexplored; in fact, in the "official" Spelljammer setting (i.e. without any fan additions) I believe there are only 30-odd known spheres. Vague rumours from unknown spheres will occassionaly float around the locality of spelljamming ports, but probably wouldn't travel much further afield.

Does this mean that different races from various planets migrated to Toril... or just the opposite?

Some races (for example humans) appear to have evolved on multiple worlds, while others (such as elves) are thought to originate from a single planet. Those species considered native to Toril include (but are no means limited to) yuan-ti, naga, dopplegangers, kuo-toa, aaracokra, kenku, sprites, pixies, and humans. Dragons have lived on the planet longer than many of the native species have even existed, but aren't native themselves.

Elves and dwarves are both definiely immigrants to the world, and I'd assume gnomes and halflings are as well. Not all ethnic human groups are natives of Toril either, many either immigrated to Toril or were brought there, including the ancestors of the modern day inhabitants of Calimshan.

Are these portals accessible only by the Plane of Fire natives? Otherwise, wouldn't people just die without some type of protection?

Presumably anything that could survive the extreme conditions could use the portals, be it a creature that's naturally fire resistant (e.g. a red dragon) or a person protected by magic.

So a prime example of this would be Sigil, right?

Sigil isn't a planet in the Prime Material Plane, it's a city within a different plane, called the Outlands.

Oh, yes! If you're not too busy. 

This is all I could dig up on it: "Phlogiston, or the Flow, which is incredibly flammable but seems to be incapable of existing within a sphere. Otherwise it is undetectable except for the brilliant, chaotic collors it is composed of. It is odorless and seems to have no effect on breathing. In the Flow planar contact of any sort is impossible, even for the gods/powers."

Note that the last sentence isn't quite accurate, since while most gods indeed cannot contact worshippers who're in the Flow, there are a few who can (mainly gods of travel).

Very much like in The Chronicles of Narnia. So, theoretically, Narnia may be just another plane within the D&D Universe. After all, many of the D&D creatures exist in that world.

Obviously you can add whatever fantasy setting you want to the D&D universe (be it your own setting or someone else's), though of course it'll never be "official" . Officially, the Forgotten Realms (and related settings, such as Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur), Dragonlance, and Greyhawk are the only settings directly connected to the Spelljammer universe.

Of the other D&D settings, Planescape and Ravenloft both concern other planes, so can only be reached by planewalking. Dark Sun exists in a crystal sphere which has no portals, so cannot be entered (or exited) by Spelljammers. Mystara is set in a universe more like our own. Birthright and Eberron were both invented after the Spelljammer setting was officially dropped.

Which totally brings up an entirely new topic. It irritates me that something could be strong enough to threaten someone like Elminster, yet no one will consider making a BGIII still on the same story because the PC is too powerful.

The direct threats to Elminster come in the form of a single enemy or group of enemies scattered many years apart. A game like that would be rather boring, no?

I'm particularly interested on Kapri, Chandos, and H'Catha.

-If Kapri is home to Aquatic Elves, does this mean that the planet is almost (if not all) water?

-If Orcs and Dwarves live on Chandos, do they live in co-existance?

-Why is it that H'Catha is home to Beholders, when beholders have their home in the Abyss? (Or was it the Nine-Hells?)

And lastly, is it just a coincidence that none of the planets are inhospitable? Or are some planets better at supporting, say beholders then... something like humans?

Karpri (two r's) : Yes, it's described as a spherical water body, with no large land masses other than ice packs at each of the poles. Creatures do live at the poles, such as remorhaz, winter wolves, and yeti. There is also a very small colony of gnomes at the south pole, the survivors of a crashed spelljammer.

Chandos: All three species are the descendants of survivors of crashed spelljamming ships. The planet is highly dangerous - it mostly consists of water, with numerous highly unstable islands that gradually shift around the surface of the planet, often crashing into each other in the process. The temperature varies between as much as 80 degrees during the day, and -30 at night. All sorts of predators - including sentient plants - exist on the planet.

All in all it's not a very nice or safe place, and orcs, dwarves and humans are all in constant competition for their very survival. The conditions of the planet mean it's unlikely they'll ever be rescued; if anyone were to try it, they'd probably end up being stranded on the planet themselves. All three stranded species have reverted to primitive states of mind, and will attack either of the other species on sight.

H'Catha: It's just somewhere Beholders happen to live. You might as well ask why humans live in Athkatla, when they also live in Waterdeep .

Hospitality: Different species have wildly different requirements in regards to atmosphere, food, and other such conditions. Obviously humans couldn't live on a planet with a consistent temperature of -200 or 10,000 degrees centigrade, but that doesn't mean many other species couldn't .

The "triad" of Realmspace, Greyspace and Krynnspace are near the centre of the known D&D universe, so they're all going to attract a lot of visitors. If a particular group of visitors spots a planet which is uninhabited because it's unsuitable for other forms of life, but is perfect for them, they'll want to snap it up .

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 07 June 2005 - 04:18 PM.

[Lord-Jyssev]

ahhh so would it be possible to say find a portal and teleport to a different planet? btw when and how did dragons come to be

Edited by Lord-Jyssev, 07 June 2005 - 06:10 PM.

[Wiskas]

No, a crystal sphere is the same thing as a solar system (planets orbitting one or more stars, etc), except it's inside an enormous sphere.

I think it's written somewhere that any kind of world/universe except for planar can exist in a crystal sphere on Prime. So you can have our whole infinite universe within a sphere or a world of endless ocean in which swims a turtle, who carry four elephants, who in turn carry flat Earth.

[oralpain]

Crystal spheres are not separate planes and they are not infinite. Some of them are really really big, but they still have a limit.

[Archmage Silver]

What about magic in the spheres? Does one sphere always have it's own Weave or is there an universal Weave that a spellcaster could use to have spellcasting powers in any sphere? Or is it possible to be connected to the Weave of Toril while in Krynnspace?

[NiGHTMARE]

IIRC the weave is something unique to the Forgotten Realms. I'm not sure it even exists on the other worlds within Realmspace. Magic works somewhat different on other worlds and planes.

[Archmage Silver]

Hmm... what about ie. Elminster who travels between worlds? How does his magic work or does it at all?

[NiGHTMARE]

I assume it's relatively easy for mages to adapt, at least for high level mages like Elminster.

[Archmage Silver]

Yeah, I suppose so. He was a rogue at the start... heh. I assume that magical artifacts might work fine in other worlds even though made in Toril? Or vice versa?

[Wiskas]

Crystal spheres are not separate planes and they are not infinite. Some of them are really really big, but they still have a limit.

I disagree.

Prime, like all planes, is infinite. Therefore if you divide it to 2 pieces they still will be infinite. Then you divide once more and more... And you have infinite number of infinite worlds in one plane :thumb:

I don't see why a world on Prime can't be infinite.

[Andyr]

Not all Planes are infinite.

Also, re Beholders - they are not native to either the Nine Hells or the Abyss. Their creator deity, the Great Mother, does roam the Abyss though.

[oralpain]

Crystal spheres are not separate planes and they are not infinite. Some of them are really really big, but they still have a limit.

I disagree.

Prime, like all planes, is infinite. Therefore if you divide it to 2 pieces they still will be infinite. Then you divide once more and more... And you have infinite number of infinite worlds in one plane :thumb:

I don't see why a world on Prime can't be infinite.

None of the offical crystal spheres are infinite. The prime material plane is, the innerplanes are, the ethereal is, the astral is, the outer planes are, but this does not at all mean that everything that exists within them is.

The real universe may be infinite (no way of knowing for *sure*, at this time), but this planet, wich is most definatly a part of/in the universe, is not. Earth is quite mesurable.

[discharger12]

Something else that's been bugging me- If the Abyss is limitless, and the Nine-Hells only have nine planes, then why is it that the Blood War still rages on?

Which also reminds me- where can I read more on the Blood War?

[NiGHTMARE]

The Nine Hells is a single plane, with nine layers. While the number of layers may be finite, the layers themselves are infinite in size.

[Andyr]

It is an interesting point, though, about the differing orders of magnitude of infinity.

I think one of the older Planescape supplements tried to resolve the issue by saying that only a small proportion of the Tanar'ri are actually involved in the Blood War, with most doing their own thing (e.g. fighting other Tanar'ri).

Also... I was of the impression that some of the layers of the Nine Hells (e.g. Nessus) were finite in size.