[EDIT: I re-read what I wrote below and it sounds awfully negative. I assure you that's not my intention.]
Sorry if I'm trying to oversimplify things, but will there end up being a sort of 'sweet spot' for a character with a certain DEX to always (when possible) wear a certain type of armour?
For example, a character with a DEX of 16 would be best off wearing nothing heavier than (picking a random armour type) Hide? Or a character with a DEX of 17 be best off wearing nothing heavier than Leather? Or would a person have to spend a while trying on lots of different types or armour to see which best suits a particular character? And then possilbly have to repeat the process with the other five characters they have in the party?
Also, WRT the slowed movement rate, how much of a difference does the heaviest armour make? Will the party be forever waiting for the group tank to catch up so that they can exit the area and move on? If so, will the five aspects of this component be optional, or do they automatically all install?
Armor Revisions
Started by T.G.Maestro, May 30 2005 07:15 AM
159 replies to this topic
#142
--The Bigg--
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 05:32 AM
No problem, criticism is what makes things become better, praise never helped[EDIT: I re-read what I wrote below and it sounds awfully negative. I assure you that's not my intention.]
This mod is about offering tactical choices, not about simplifying things. You don't have to spend time trying out different armours, it's more like "I'd like Minsc to be able to hide efficently, move fast and use effectively also the long bow - I'll give him leather, or studded leather; Anomen won't use his ranged weapon, and must be able to resist blows to cast more reliably Heal spells, and stand alive to cast Raise Dead, I'll give him the best (full) plate + Large Shield I can find; Keldorn should be a fighter with discrete mobility and decent use of ranged weapons, but also resistant: I'll give him chain armor", etc.Sorry if I'm trying to oversimplify things, but will there end up being a sort of 'sweet spot' for a character with a certain DEX to always (when possible) wear a certain type of armour?
For example, a character with a DEX of 16 would be best off wearing nothing heavier than (picking a random armour type) Hide? Or a character with a DEX of 17 be best off wearing nothing heavier than Leather? Or would a person have to spend a while trying on lots of different types or armour to see which best suits a particular character? And then possilbly have to repeat the process with the other five characters they have in the party?
In my limited tests it's not that bad - when exploring, the fights are close enough to each other not to feel much of a hinderance; TBH, when I'm not in combat I always use ctrl-j anyway to move across larger distances (I don't use that in fights, of course).Also, WRT the slowed movement rate, how much of a difference does the heaviest armour make? Will the party be forever waiting for the group tank to catch up so that they can exit the area and move on? If so, will the five aspects of this component be optional, or do they automatically all install?
And then there are all those boots of speed, which will reduce the gap: for coding reasons, boots of speed + full plate vs. boots of speed is only -15% to speed rather than -30% as would be if both didn't have the B.o.S.
Sorry, it's not possible to install only select parts - it'd be too much of a hassle.
If you want no DEX penalty or movement modifier for a "I'll take always the best AC available" approach to gameplay, you can always install the similar components from G3Tweaks.
#143
Bursk
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 05:50 AM
Thanks for the reply.
You mention 'offering tactical choices', yet I've seen a number of threads on various boards where you've talked about how Jaheira would probably be better off wearing light armour (at least that's been my interpretation of your comments). This is what prompted my post.
What I didn't want to find myself doing was selecting the 'wrong' armour type for my character. I don't want them to choose an armour that will negate their natural DEX AC bonus, but at the same time I don't want them wearing a weaker armour and getting hit lots and taking damage if it's not necessary. It's not that I don't like the DEX modifier part of the mod, it's just that I'm not sure how best to make use of the way it works.
The only part of the mod I'm not sure I like is the movement modifier. With all due respect, bigg, I don't think ctrl-j is a good way to counter the 'waiting for my tank' issue (that's assuming it does become an issue). If I want to play realistically (and if I'm using Refs then surely I do) then warping across large distances with ctrl-j isn't the answer. Boots of Speed will certainly help, although I'm not sure how many pairs are in the first Baldur's Gate, or when you actually get them.
Again, I apologise for the negativity. No disrespect to the mod authors is intended.
You mention 'offering tactical choices', yet I've seen a number of threads on various boards where you've talked about how Jaheira would probably be better off wearing light armour (at least that's been my interpretation of your comments). This is what prompted my post.
What I didn't want to find myself doing was selecting the 'wrong' armour type for my character. I don't want them to choose an armour that will negate their natural DEX AC bonus, but at the same time I don't want them wearing a weaker armour and getting hit lots and taking damage if it's not necessary. It's not that I don't like the DEX modifier part of the mod, it's just that I'm not sure how best to make use of the way it works.
The only part of the mod I'm not sure I like is the movement modifier. With all due respect, bigg, I don't think ctrl-j is a good way to counter the 'waiting for my tank' issue (that's assuming it does become an issue). If I want to play realistically (and if I'm using Refs then surely I do) then warping across large distances with ctrl-j isn't the answer. Boots of Speed will certainly help, although I'm not sure how many pairs are in the first Baldur's Gate, or when you actually get them.
Again, I apologise for the negativity. No disrespect to the mod authors is intended.
#144
--The Bigg--
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 06:38 AM
It all falls down to individual game play: Jaheira with one of those -2 AC full plates and the Fortress Shield (large shields give +1 AC more than in the original games) will still have better AC (and damage resistance!) that if she were wearing, say, a 3 AC Studded Leather and +2 Medium Shield; however, if you prefer better mobility, or the use of missile weapons, you have to sacrifice some AC points.Thanks for the reply.
You mention 'offering tactical choices', yet I've seen a number of threads on various boards where you've talked about how Jaheira would probably be better off wearing light armour (at least that's been my interpretation of your comments). This is what prompted my post.
What I didn't want to find myself doing was selecting the 'wrong' armour type for my character. I don't want them to choose an armour that will negate their natural DEX AC bonus, but at the same time I don't want them wearing a weaker armour and getting hit lots and taking damage if it's not necessary. It's not that I don't like the DEX modifier part of the mod, it's just that I'm not sure how best to make use of the way it works.
Previously, there was no reason at all not to wear a full plate, and all those leather armors were completely ignored (as the only person wearing them will be your thief, and only if you don't use Imoen).
Now, wether you prefer more tactical opportunities (stealth, mobility, ranged weapons), more defense (sheer AC and damage resistance), or a mix of the two, you'll choose a category of armours and stick with that one.
Also, there are several lighter armors (mostly dragon and Ankheg ones) which will offer you both good AC and discrete mobility. The problem only really arises if you want to completely max out your AC.
Well, the 'wait for the others' problem does still appear if you have only one set of Boots of Speed: your fast character will wait for the others. What was your solution with this problem?The only part of the mod I'm not sure I like is the movement modifier. With all due respect, bigg, I don't think ctrl-j is a good way to counter the 'waiting for my tank' issue (that's assuming it does become an issue). If I want to play realistically (and if I'm using Refs then surely I do) then warping across large distances with ctrl-j isn't the answer. Boots of Speed will certainly help, although I'm not sure how many pairs are in the first Baldur's Gate, or when you actually get them
Of course, once we release the mod we might very well change those numbers if they prove to be too difficult to cope with.
No problem, without critics you cannot make a really good modAgain, I apologise for the negativity. No disrespect to the mod authors is intended.
#145
Littiz
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 06:49 AM
Would you in real life? Would you dig up tables and numbers if you had to wear an armor? I say you'd choose one you'd feel content with (whatever the reason).Or would a person have to spend a while trying on lots of different types or armour to see which best suits a particular character? And then possilbly have to repeat the process with the other five characters they have in the party?
With many different parameters affecting the issue, finding the "optimum" is rather a foggy process: what's best is to try and choose armors that fit your characters well.
Consider that such kind of movement is not that relevant to the game, though; while you might find yourself in the middle of a battle, trying to disengage.The only part of the mod I'm not sure I like is the movement modifier. With all due respect, bigg, I don't think ctrl-j is a good way to counter the 'waiting for my tank' issue (that's assuming it does become an issue). If I want to play realistically (and if I'm using Refs then surely I do) then warping across large distances with ctrl-j isn't the answer.
A heavily armored characters MUST have a harder time, here, that's the reason of the tweak in the first place.
For instance, you will want to equip you Archer with light armor and the boots of speed, if only to allow him to disengage at full speed in any moment, and strike from distance.
This modification is perfectly logic, and will give interesting tactical choices, imho.
Actually, if it was easy to code, I'd also implement Fatigue modifiers based on the height of the armors....
Anyway, remember that all the penalties are reduced for Enchanted armors.
Ever forward, my darling wind...
#146
Bursk
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 07:08 AM
Well, the 'wait for the others' problem does still appear if you have only one set of Boots of Speed: your fast character will wait for the others. What was your solution with this problem?
I'm not sure there is a solution, other than to have your characters walk at a same or similar speed.
Would you in real life? Would you dig up tables and numbers if you had to wear an armor? I say you'd choose one you'd feel content with (whatever the reason).
And what reasons would you choose? Maybe mobility and damage resistance would be good choices. Very well, but which of the available armour types is right for a specific person and their characteristics?
Consider that such kind of movement is not that relevant to the game, though; while you might find yourself in the middle of a battle, trying to disengage.
A heavily armored characters MUST have a harder time, here, that's the reason of the tweak in the first place.
For instance, you will want to equip you Archer with light armor and the boots of speed, if only to allow him to disengage at full speed in any moment, and strike from distance.
This modification is perfectly logic, and will give interesting tactical choices, imho.
I agree that it works well in battle; what I'm concerned with, however, are the times my party isn't in battle and is instead walking around (I'm sure there's considerably more walking than fighting involved in these games). All I'm saying is that it could get tedious always having to wait for your heavily armoured characters to catch up with the group before you can move on, regardless of how exciting it makes fighting.
Anyway, remember that all the penalties are reduced for Enchanted armors.
Correct, but we can't rely on having enchanted armours, especially in the first game.
I'm not sure there is a solution, other than to have your characters walk at a same or similar speed.
Would you in real life? Would you dig up tables and numbers if you had to wear an armor? I say you'd choose one you'd feel content with (whatever the reason).
And what reasons would you choose? Maybe mobility and damage resistance would be good choices. Very well, but which of the available armour types is right for a specific person and their characteristics?
Consider that such kind of movement is not that relevant to the game, though; while you might find yourself in the middle of a battle, trying to disengage.
A heavily armored characters MUST have a harder time, here, that's the reason of the tweak in the first place.
For instance, you will want to equip you Archer with light armor and the boots of speed, if only to allow him to disengage at full speed in any moment, and strike from distance.
This modification is perfectly logic, and will give interesting tactical choices, imho.
I agree that it works well in battle; what I'm concerned with, however, are the times my party isn't in battle and is instead walking around (I'm sure there's considerably more walking than fighting involved in these games). All I'm saying is that it could get tedious always having to wait for your heavily armoured characters to catch up with the group before you can move on, regardless of how exciting it makes fighting.
Anyway, remember that all the penalties are reduced for Enchanted armors.
Correct, but we can't rely on having enchanted armours, especially in the first game.
#147
--The Bigg--
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 07:29 AM
[quote name='Bursk' date='Sep 22 2005, 04:58 PM']Would you in real life? Would you dig up tables and numbers if you had to wear an armor? I say you'd choose one you'd feel content with (whatever the reason).
And what reasons would you choose? Maybe mobility and damage resistance would be good choices. Very well, but which of the available armour types is right for a specific person and their characteristics?[/quote]
That depends on your play style, there is no 'right' answer. Some prefer to use Jaheira as a tank (scimitar and shield), some as a melee attacker (two scimitars or equivalent), and some others as a sling thrower. The first will want to use full plate and large shield, the seconds heavy, or medium(/ light) wether they prefer better AC or mobility, and the last ones light armor and medium/small shields to avoid hindering her DEX.
There is no right and wrong, there are only different playstiles, whereas formerly light armors were almost always wrong.
[quote]Consider that such kind of movement is not that relevant to the game, though; while you might find yourself in the middle of a battle, trying to disengage.
A heavily armored characters MUST have a harder time, here, that's the reason of the tweak in the first place.
For instance, you will want to equip you Archer with light armor and the boots of speed, if only to allow him to disengage at full speed in any moment, and strike from distance.
This modification is perfectly logic, and will give interesting tactical choices, imho.
I agree that it works well in battle; what I'm concerned with, however, are the times my party isn't in battle and is instead walking around (I'm sure there's considerably more walking than fighting involved in these games). All I'm saying is that it could get tedious always having to wait for your heavily armoured characters to catch up with the group before you can move on, regardless of how exciting it makes fighting.[/quote]
Let me repeat myself:
IF THIS PROVES TO BE A MAJOR ANNOYANCE AFTER IT HAS BEEN PLAYTESTED, WE MAY VERY WELL REDUCE THE EFFECT.
In my limited tests, 30% or less doesn't seem mayorly annoying. You can always put the slow tank first and select 'follow' as a marching order, and your party will march united; this has the advantage than the tank will be the one taking the initial blow (and, in modless game, pretty much the only one).
[quote]Anyway, remember that all the penalties are reduced for Enchanted armors.
Correct, but we can't rely on having enchanted armours, especially in the first game.
[right]
[/right]
And what reasons would you choose? Maybe mobility and damage resistance would be good choices. Very well, but which of the available armour types is right for a specific person and their characteristics?[/quote]
That depends on your play style, there is no 'right' answer. Some prefer to use Jaheira as a tank (scimitar and shield), some as a melee attacker (two scimitars or equivalent), and some others as a sling thrower. The first will want to use full plate and large shield, the seconds heavy, or medium(/ light) wether they prefer better AC or mobility, and the last ones light armor and medium/small shields to avoid hindering her DEX.
There is no right and wrong, there are only different playstiles, whereas formerly light armors were almost always wrong.
[quote]Consider that such kind of movement is not that relevant to the game, though; while you might find yourself in the middle of a battle, trying to disengage.
A heavily armored characters MUST have a harder time, here, that's the reason of the tweak in the first place.
For instance, you will want to equip you Archer with light armor and the boots of speed, if only to allow him to disengage at full speed in any moment, and strike from distance.
This modification is perfectly logic, and will give interesting tactical choices, imho.
I agree that it works well in battle; what I'm concerned with, however, are the times my party isn't in battle and is instead walking around (I'm sure there's considerably more walking than fighting involved in these games). All I'm saying is that it could get tedious always having to wait for your heavily armoured characters to catch up with the group before you can move on, regardless of how exciting it makes fighting.[/quote]
Let me repeat myself:
IF THIS PROVES TO BE A MAJOR ANNOYANCE AFTER IT HAS BEEN PLAYTESTED, WE MAY VERY WELL REDUCE THE EFFECT.
In my limited tests, 30% or less doesn't seem mayorly annoying. You can always put the slow tank first and select 'follow' as a marching order, and your party will march united; this has the advantage than the tank will be the one taking the initial blow (and, in modless game, pretty much the only one).
[quote]Anyway, remember that all the penalties are reduced for Enchanted armors.
Correct, but we can't rely on having enchanted armours, especially in the first game.
[right]
[/right]
#148
Bursk
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:03 AM
Let me repeat myself:
IF THIS PROVES TO BE A MAJOR ANNOYANCE AFTER IT HAS BEEN PLAYTESTED, WE MAY VERY WELL REDUCE THE EFFECT.
Ah, I see you are starting to become irritated. If I were to repeat myself, you'd perhaps notice that I was responding to the comments made by Littiz on why having slower characters is a good thing.
I've mentioned everything I wanted to regarding this subject. Thanks to both you and Littiz for responding to my questions.
#149
--The Bigg--
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:19 AM
I noted that you were replying to Littiz's argument, no worryAh, I see you are starting to become irritated. If I were to repeat myself, you'd perhaps notice that I was responding to the comments made by Littiz on why having slower characters is a good thing.
I've mentioned everything I wanted to regarding this subject. Thanks to both you and Littiz for responding to my questions.
My point is that right now the only working version of the Movement Modifier is on my computer (TGM and Littiz have a beta build, but that specific part doesn't work correctly), so we're more or less doing theoretical debates on how annoying that part may be, without being able to justify our claims. The only bit of (not aimed at this, moreover!) testing anybody ever did (and that is me playing through Irenicus' dungeon) reported that, in Irenicus' dungeon and with my playstyle, using a splint mail (penalty of 20% to movement), the slowing effect is hardly noticeable in (at least short) travels, while still being important to battle tactics. Anything more than that is just speculation, both on your and my part (unless you actually modified the files on your own and tried it out on your own, in which case I apologize for having wrongly said you didn't test anything).
Once we release the mod (and it's a matter of days, barring large, catastrophic events) we will have a large base of people who tested the component, using different parties and playstyles, allowing us to debate based on *facts* rather than calculations and suppositions; if, after playtesting, many people will report that this part is annoying and detracts from the game enjoyment, we might as well remove or alter it.
PS: I'm sorry if I sounded annoyed or angry, I don't have good people skills.
Edited by the bigg, 22 September 2005 - 08:22 AM.
#150
Bursk
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 09:48 AM
Sounds resonable.
I am very much looking forward to v3, which is why I want it to be (in my eyes) just perfect.
Oh, and I know you weren't trying to be mean. Don't worry about it.
I am very much looking forward to v3, which is why I want it to be (in my eyes) just perfect.
Oh, and I know you weren't trying to be mean. Don't worry about it.
#151
T.G.Maestro
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Eclipse
Posted 25 September 2005 - 11:43 PM
A year ago or so, when I was testing the prototype of this armor system on my computer, the differences in walking speed seemed reasonable, and never annoying. At least not more annoying than the issue with characters at normal and "boots of speed" walking pace, as it was already mentioned above.My point is that right now the only working version of the Movement Modifier is on my computer (TGM and Littiz have a beta build, but that specific part doesn't work correctly), so we're more or less doing theoretical debates on how annoying that part may be, without being able to justify our claims
Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!
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#152
NiGHTMARE
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Posted 26 September 2005 - 03:29 AM
Is strength taken into consideration in this? By my maths, a character with a strength of 4 wearing leather armor should move at almost the same speed as a character with a strength of 19 wearing full plate:
70 / 19 = 3.68
15 / 4 = 3.75
Or alternatively:
70 / 15 = 4.67
19 / 4 = 4.75
(70 being the weight of full plate, and 15 the weight of leather armor)
70 / 19 = 3.68
15 / 4 = 3.75
Or alternatively:
70 / 15 = 4.67
19 / 4 = 4.75
(70 being the weight of full plate, and 15 the weight of leather armor)
Edited by NiGHTMARE, 26 September 2005 - 03:31 AM.
#153
--The Bigg--
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Posted 26 September 2005 - 05:51 AM
Too difficult, and I'd like to avoid scripts if possible (well, we use them extensively, but in this istance it'd be too difficultIs strength taken into consideration in this? By my maths, a character with a strength of 4 wearing leather armor should move at almost the same speed as a character with a strength of 19 wearing full plate:
70 / 19 = 3.68
15 / 4 = 3.75
Or alternatively:
70 / 15 = 4.67
19 / 4 = 4.75
(70 being the weight of full plate, and 15 the weight of leather armor)
)However, since I found a way to cap damage resistance to 75 via slight scripting, I can as well make it so that out of combat your movement speed is at least 10 (bg2's standard), if there is enough protest for this
#154
Bursk
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Posted 26 September 2005 - 10:15 AM
Well, I suppose it goes without saying that I'd welcome this. I think it would give the best of both worlds (realism and convenience).
#155
T.G.Maestro
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Eclipse
Posted 27 September 2005 - 11:18 PM
I can as well make it so that out of combat your movement speed is at least 10 (bg2's standard), if there is enough protest for this
As I said before, I don't support this idea - nostly because it never made the game annoying in my playtests (not when compared to the already present "Boots-of-Speed-problem").Well, I suppose it goes without saying that I'd welcome this. I think it would give the best of both worlds (realism and convenience).
Yet, if there will be a serious need for such a modification to the system, I can live with it.
Refinements v2 has been released!
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#156
Bursk
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Posted 28 September 2005 - 04:17 AM
I can as well make it so that out of combat your movement speed is at least 10 (bg2's standard), if there is enough protest for this
As I said before, I don't support this idea - nostly because it never made the game annoying in my playtests (not when compared to the already present "Boots-of-Speed-problem").Well, I suppose it goes without saying that I'd welcome this. I think it would give the best of both worlds (realism and convenience).
Yet, if there will be a serious need for such a modification to the system, I can live with it.
But I, for one, don't use boots of speed (because who wants one party member speeding off on their own all the time) so there is no problem. I can live without using boots of speed, but it'd be a shame to miss out on this part of Refinements. Assuming the slowdown is a problem. I don't see why having the slowdown only occur in battle and not constantly would be unwelcome.
#157
NiGHTMARE
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Posted 28 September 2005 - 04:20 AM
If some people do end up finding it annoying but the Refinements team decide not to change it, creating modified versions of the Boots of Speed is pretty easy .
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#158
Kalindor
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Nerd of Lordly Calibur
Posted 11 October 2005 - 03:30 PM
How's the progress going on the revised armor component? I am salivating all over myself in excitement.
#159
--The Bigg--
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Posted 12 October 2005 - 03:29 AM
There is left only some quick fixes and the readme to complete. However, readmes are usually Littiz's doing, and ATM he is saturated with RL work.
[unless it was supposed I am to write them, but I'm not too good at that ]
[unless it was supposed I am to write them, but I'm not too good at that
]
#160
T.G.Maestro
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Eclipse
Posted 16 October 2005 - 01:00 PM
The same here - but I fullheartedly hope that once it comes out, you'll enjoy it as much as I willThere is left only some quick fixes and the readme to complete. However, readmes are usually Littiz's doing, and ATM he is saturated with RL work.
.
Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!
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