I slit water on y keyoard and soe keys no longer work. I have ordered a new one. I know it's late in the day ut I was wondering how well the DEX enalties will work with Ashes of Embers' Weapon Stat Requirements. Will the use of ost arours ean that a lot of NPCs can no longer use their reffered weaons (I is thinking of NPCs in oth the first and second aldur's Gate gaes)? It would e awful if ost arours were out of ounds for NPCs ecause it would then ean that they couldn't use the weaons they like/are good with. Sorry aout the cra selling and lack of saces (enter and return don't work either).
Armor Revisions
Started by T.G.Maestro, May 30 2005 07:15 AM
159 replies to this topic
#122
Littiz
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Posted 05 September 2005 - 10:55 PM
Actually it makes perfect sense: a fighter/thief is supposed to be good at thieving, but he won't be good at it while wearing a plate.
Similarly, if you want to use a weapon that requires high agility, you'll have to choose an armor which gives little or no penalty to dexterity.
Raising such situations is the very point of the component, and in that case it seems we'll have even a nice "compatibility of goals" with an external mod
Similarly, if you want to use a weapon that requires high agility, you'll have to choose an armor which gives little or no penalty to dexterity.
Raising such situations is the very point of the component, and in that case it seems we'll have even a nice "compatibility of goals" with an external mod
Ever forward, my darling wind...
#123
Bursk
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 01:09 AM
Sure I understand the theory ut I just wondered if there ight e ifficulties when ut into ractice in-gae Has anyone tested this yet with oth the first and second gaes?Actually it makes perfect sense: a fighter/thief is supposed to be good at thieving, but he won't be good at it while wearing a plate.
Similarly, if you want to use a weapon that requires high agility, you'll have to choose an armor which gives little or no penalty to dexterity.
Raising such situations is the very point of the component, and in that case it seems we'll have even a nice "compatibility of goals" with an external mod
#124
--The Bigg--
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 01:14 AM
We have a NPC revision component awaiting somewhere 
though, keep in mind that we don't list AoE as a recommended mod, so side effects like this can happen.
@Littiz: he actually has a point - I suppose that EG keldorn has always used plate mail (or better), and so it's not clear how he was supposed to train with 2-handed swords:
in AoE, a 2-h sword requires 8 dex, but Keldord wears a +1 plate mail (-5 to dex) and has 9 dex. The fact that his 2-h sword's requirements don't list dex saved him, though
EDIT (crossposted with Bursk): We at refinements (at least since I joined the group) dislike testing stuff before sending to the general public - there have been cases of blatant not working tp2's
though, keep in mind that we don't list AoE as a recommended mod, so side effects like this can happen.
@Littiz: he actually has a point - I suppose that EG keldorn has always used plate mail (or better), and so it's not clear how he was supposed to train with 2-handed swords:
in AoE, a 2-h sword requires 8 dex, but Keldord wears a +1 plate mail (-5 to dex) and has 9 dex. The fact that his 2-h sword's requirements don't list dex saved him, though
EDIT (crossposted with Bursk): We at refinements (at least since I joined the group) dislike testing stuff before sending to the general public - there have been cases of blatant not working tp2's
Edited by the bigg, 06 September 2005 - 01:17 AM.
#125
Ladejarl
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:23 AM
Two-handed weapons, including swords, and plate armour are not incompatible. With the advent of plate armor, warriors abounded shields to be able to wield weapons two-handed. They could do cartwheels in plate armor, if they wanted to.
Then again, rpg combat and armour systems has a few flaws.
Some interesting articles can be found here:
http://www.atfantasy.com/view/369
http://www.atfantasy.com/view/347
Then again, rpg combat and armour systems has a few flaws.
Some interesting articles can be found here:
http://www.atfantasy.com/view/369
http://www.atfantasy.com/view/347
#126
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:36 AM
Our goal is not to be realistic.
Our goal is to reduce the bonuses of heavier armours, so that a plate mail isn't automatically better than a leather (in fact, I just started a game, and Jaheira had the same AC with chain and leather due to the DEX penalty... chain gave more protection against damage, leather more dexterity and speed, so the game is, in average, more difficult (the fights, since you'll have less AC, and the equipment part, since it's not always obvious that an armour is better than another).
Our goal is to reduce the bonuses of heavier armours, so that a plate mail isn't automatically better than a leather (in fact, I just started a game, and Jaheira had the same AC with chain and leather due to the DEX penalty... chain gave more protection against damage, leather more dexterity and speed, so the game is, in average, more difficult (the fights, since you'll have less AC, and the equipment part, since it's not always obvious that an armour is better than another).
#127
Littiz
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 09:39 AM
Wait wait wait, let's get to some honest reasoning, ok?
If you put on a heavy armor, any action becomes hindered somewhat, even eating with a fork. The DEX penalty makes, ultimately, sense.
In fact, we add a DEX penalty to some armors, but it's not us that added a DEX requirement to weapons...
Neither I'm saying that Ashes of Embers is wrong!
If one consider BOTH the ideas good, he can use BOTH the modifications, and obviously, they'll act together.
If you have a dex requirement from Ashes of Embers, Armors Revision will just move the limit in some cases, it won't make heavy armors and big swords incompatible as a general rule.
Our goal is to be more realistic than the original game was in this field.Our goal is not to be realistic.
If you put on a heavy armor, any action becomes hindered somewhat, even eating with a fork. The DEX penalty makes, ultimately, sense.
Indeed, and we never said that they should be.Two-handed weapons, including swords, and plate armour are not incompatible.
In fact, we add a DEX penalty to some armors, but it's not us that added a DEX requirement to weapons...
Neither I'm saying that Ashes of Embers is wrong!
If one consider BOTH the ideas good, he can use BOTH the modifications, and obviously, they'll act together.
If you have a dex requirement from Ashes of Embers, Armors Revision will just move the limit in some cases, it won't make heavy armors and big swords incompatible as a general rule.
Well, perfect, you can even pretend he did special training for thatAoE, a 2-h sword requires 8 dex, but Keldord wears a +1 plate mail (-5 to dex) and has 9 dex. The fact that his 2-h sword's requirements don't list dex saved him, though
Edited by Littiz, 06 September 2005 - 09:40 AM.
Ever forward, my darling wind...
#128
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 10:33 AM
I was speaking about absolute realism, EG the fact that a full plate hinders less, the fact that armor doesn't confer protection vs. missile but shields do, etc.Wait wait wait, let's get to some honest reasoning, ok?
Our goal is to be more realistic than the original game was in this field.Our goal is not to be realistic.
If you put on a heavy armor, any action becomes hindered somewhat, even eating with a fork. The DEX penalty makes, ultimately, sense.
Well, perfect, you can even pretend he did special training for thatAoE, a 2-h sword requires 8 dex, but Keldord wears a +1 plate mail (-5 to dex) and has 9 dex. The fact that his 2-h sword's requirements don't list dex saved him, though
However, not all one-npc-only items are this lucky: try browsing the NP* items.
As an example, Mazzy cannot use her bow if she's wearing an armor giving a penalty bigger than 1...
And then we have the problem with characters reaching 0 DEX and dying by wearing an armour, or the other problem I mentioned in mails if we introduced the dex requirement...
I know I should have said this before
, but I didn't think about it: the DEX penalty (while logical in a Pen and Paper game) pulls up various problems; however, IMHO it really adds to the depth of the tactical choices (a heavier armor doesn't give the same AC as before due to the dex penal), so we can't simply scrap the idea. 
#129
Bursk
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 10:42 AM
I can completely understand Littiz's point about Refinements not having added a DEX requirement to weapons, but I think that both AoE and Refs are such great mods that ideally they'd play nice together, if possible.
What about artifically raising some NPCs DEX scores, but not to the point where it applies a positive modifier. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to create more work for you guys :-(
What about artifically raising some NPCs DEX scores, but not to the point where it applies a positive modifier. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to create more work for you guys :-(
#130
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 10:51 AM
What about artifically raising some NPCs DEX scores, but not to the point where it applies a positive modifier. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to create more work for you guys :-(
It often isn't enough, sorry
I would have preferred a fixed penalty to AC and missile thac0, but armors giving a penalty to AC..
All in all, the dex penalty brings in a lot of problems - but, on the other hand, is the diamond's head of our system (as opposed to the similar tweak of G3Tweaks)
#131
Bursk
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 11:02 AM
The only other thing I could think of is if the AoE DEX requirements were altered, or a special, separate version made for Refs. I think that's a big ask, though.
#132
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 11:15 AM
IMHO, this would actually be a good reason to start using those light armors, rather than full plate - more or less the goal of the modThe only other thing I could think of is if the AoE DEX requirements were altered, or a special, separate version made for Refs. I think that's a big ask, though.
In D&D, adventurers would use either middle (chain, splint...) or light (leather, studded...) armours: heavy armours (plate & up) were only for the large field battles.
Also, I don't think Ghrey is going to prepare a special version of AoE just for us - usually, it's the mod which comes out first which has to do all the adaptative work.
(with Ghrey's consent, I could always publish a clone of AoE, with revised DEX requirements... and maybe also an universal armor component
#133
Bursk
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 11:26 AM
I've sent Ghrey a PM at PPG, asking him to take a look at this thread, just to get his take on the situation.
Looking at the requirements imposed by AoE, I suppose there could be room to maneuver, although some of the requirements are already very low e.g. Dagger and Staff are both 4. Perhaps if some of the more difficult items were brought down just a notch, it might still be okay and every weapon would have realistic requirements relative to each other.
Also, what would your 'universal armor component' be, exactly?
Looking at the requirements imposed by AoE, I suppose there could be room to maneuver, although some of the requirements are already very low e.g. Dagger and Staff are both 4. Perhaps if some of the more difficult items were brought down just a notch, it might still be okay and every weapon would have realistic requirements relative to each other.
Also, what would your 'universal armor component' be, exactly?
#134
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 12:05 PM
Well, as a prime example, Keldorn with his plate has exactly 4 dex; 3 with a large shield, so he'd have problems even using a staff, not to mention a 2-h sword, to use which he'd need a penalty no bigger than 1 (consult the chart to see what weapons are eligible). Similar problems are brought up by Anomen, of course (who has 10 dex, but would get a -1 if using a large shield, and requires 8 for morning star and 5 for more or less everything else), etc..I've sent Ghrey a PM at PPG, asking him to take a look at this thread, just to get his take on the situation.
Looking at the requirements imposed by AoE, I suppose there could be room to maneuver, although some of the requirements are already very low e.g. Dagger and Staff are both 4. Perhaps if some of the more difficult items were brought down just a notch, it might still be okay and every weapon would have realistic requirements relative to each other.
Basically, while I like the idea of the Dex penalty, it brings up a lot of 'stupid' issues with item usability (although IMHO AoE's requirements are suboptimal: why, for example, should a 2-h sword require the same dex as a morning star, or a morning star require more than a mace?).
It'd be 3rd edition-like unusabilities for armours - almost anybody can wear almost anything (similar to the universal weapons part of AoE)Also, what would your 'universal armor component' be, exactly?
#135
Bursk
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 12:50 PM
I'm sure something could be worked out.
That universal armor component sounds neat!
That universal armor component sounds neat!
#136
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 01:10 PM
Uh, yeah, the big problem is to make everything balanced. My biggest concern is that the only penalty of the stalker kit is its inability to wear non-light armors; removing it would make that kit too powergaming, and leaving that specific restriction seems dumb - something similar goes for Archer; otherwise, removing all restrictions seems good enough to me, leaving them only for shapeshifter (needed for a lot of technical reasons), kensai (obvious balancing issues) and monk (since they don't have the armored animations).That universal armor component sounds neat!
Hmm, maybe I should post about this in TB#Tweaks forum and start a discussion, since this component isn't going to appear in Refinements anyway
#137
SimDing0
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 01:43 PM
Did I miss the reason it won't be in Refinements?
#138
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 01:46 PM
erm, could you define "it" in this post? I'm not drunk ATM and hence not good at guessing stuffDid I miss the reason it won't be in Refinements?
#139
Littiz
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Posted 06 September 2005 - 10:35 PM
The other problem being the fact that if the armor is given DEX requirement to avoid the death of characters starting with very low dex value (which we should do), the armor itself can become red *after* being worn, in some cases (eg: armor requires 4 dex, applies a 3 dex penalty, a character with 6 dex wears it, dex goes to 3, armor becomes red despite being worn).And then we have the problem with characters reaching 0 DEX and dying by wearing an armour, or the other problem I mentioned in mails if we introduced the dex requirement...
This problem is just a cosmetical one, and though I am usually concerned even with cosmetical issues, in this case I'd say it's not something to be worried about: you can see it as a marker for the player, reminding him that the character is "sacrificing" almost all the dexterity he has available, and that the armor is being very heavy for him. All in all, it happens for characters who don't have at least twice the dexterity requirement minus 1 (unless I'm mistaken), so the case gets a special notice
Yes, but the goal is even to create new styles of play.IMHO, this would actually be a good reason to start using those light armors, rather than full plate - more or less the goal of the mod
If you combine a Full Plate with the Fortress Shield after Armor Revisions, you'll get a *hardly* beatable tank.
Of course, tanks don't excel in agility and movement...
You mean an universal armor component?Did I miss the reason it won't be in Refinements?
Because of the balancing issues he mentioned
Edited by Littiz, 06 September 2005 - 10:44 PM.
Ever forward, my darling wind...
#140
T.G.Maestro
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Posted 07 September 2005 - 02:08 AM
I completely agree with you Littiz. Just my words up there.The other problem being the fact that if the armor is given DEX requirement to avoid the death of characters starting with very low dex value (which we should do), the armor itself can become red *after* being worn, in some cases (eg: armor requires 4 dex, applies a 3 dex penalty, a character with 6 dex wears it, dex goes to 3, armor becomes red despite being worn).
This problem is just a cosmetical one, and though I am usually concerned even with cosmetical issues, in this case I'd say it's not something to be worried about: you can see it as a marker for the player, reminding him that the character is "sacrificing" almost all the dexterity he has available, and that the armor is being very heavy for him. All in all, it happens for characters who don't have at least twice the dexterity requirement minus 1 (unless I'm mistaken), so the case gets a special notice
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