159 replies to this topic

[the bigg]

Fair enough I guess, anyway, thinking it over again, an obviously strategy would be to level up once as a fighter then dual to mage in order to gain armour usage with minimal sacrifice. However this would leave you without a kit. Yea, that's a fair tradeoff .

What about bards?

Edit: typos. again. 

Frankly, I wouldn't do that, since by wearing armours you have chances of failing your spell - and a mage can already wear Vecna and the Apprentice to get good AC without spell failure chance.
And, F -> M has always been a great munchkin choice, there is little we can do about this.
Bards can wear up to Chain, exactly as in unmodded, except that they can cast spells at times

[Chevalier]

Full Plate Mail = Full Plate Armor

Plate Mail Armor = Plate and Mail Armor

Full Plate should be lighter and easier to move in than PlateMail. Just cost a lot more to be fited to the owner. You should not be able to wear someone's else non-magic full plate.

I don't see anything about elven chain?

[the bigg]

Full Plate Mail = Full Plate Armor

Plate Mail Armor = Plate and Mail Armor

Full Plate should be lighter and easier to move in than PlateMail.  Just cost a lot more to be fited to the owner.  You should not be able to wear someone's else non-magic full plate. 

I don't see anything about elven chain?

OK, that would be right for D&D, but in BGII full plate is just a more powerful version of Plate (and heavier, as the weight and strenght requirement suggest). In BGII, you don't have to find an armourer to make a full playe fit to you, and money means nothing anyway after chapter 3, so it's not clear that full plate should be treated as lighter than plate in BGII.

Elven chain, well... Usually it's considered (both in D&D and in BGII, so don't re-use the argumentation above here as it doesn't apply) as being as light as a shirt, so it shouldn't affect your abilities anyhow. At the worst, it can affect secretive skills (move silently, pick pockets, hide) since the rings could make a noise or shine, but surely they shouldn't slow you down or worsen your thac0.

[Chevalier]

Elven chain, well... Usually it's considered (both in D&D and in BGII, so don't re-use the argumentation above here as it doesn't apply) as being as light as a shirt, so it shouldn't affect your abilities anyhow. At the worst, it can affect secretive skills (move silently, pick pockets, hide) since the rings could make a noise or shine, but surely they shouldn't slow you down or worsen your thac0.

I don't mean it to relate it to full plate, but it is not on the list. Should it be? Damage Reduction in %?

[the bigg]

I don't mean it to relate it to full plate, but it is not on the list.  Should it be?  Damage Reduction in %?

No, what I meant was that IMHO elven chain should give all the advantages of standard chain (including DR) but none of the penalties, since it has the same weight as a shirt.

[T.G.Maestro]

I don't see anything about elven chain?

Good point, I'll add that to the list.

[T.G.Maestro]

NOTE:
- Elven Chain added to the list;
- DEX penalties were made a little tougher.

[Littiz]

Maybe a bit too tougher...

Anyway, what about Ankheg? We might render it interesting again.

Also, at this point we might remove the conflict with Rings of Protections and whatever. I mean, I never used the Ease of Use tweak so far, but in an environment where you have to choose carefully who -and if- wears an armor, that restriction has little reasons to remain, imho

[Chevalier]

I do use Ease of Use, and often find better rings than +1 or +2 ring to wear. I will only ever use 1 +1 or +2 ring at a time. I think magic rings and magic armor do mix.


I do like Ankheg plate. Jaheira as a Druid should like un-matalic plate armor. With Item Upgrade, I upgrade the Ankheg.

[T.G.Maestro]

Maybe a bit too tougher

Actually, it was necessary to retain some of the drawbacks for highly enchanted heavy armors - without them, the situation of "heavy>light" would become even worse in the case of armors with an enchantment level higher than +3.

Anyway, what about Ankheg?  We might render it interesting again.

Indeed, just as many other unique set of armors. We will have to fine-tune these basic statistics for several special armors (Ankheg Plate Mail, Dragon Scale armors, etc)

Also, at this point we might remove the conflict with Rings of Protections and whatever. I mean, I never used the Ease of Use tweak so far, but in an environment where you have to choose carefully who -and if- wears an armor, that restriction has little reasons to remain, imho

You mean removing the conflict between magical armors and other magic items that would give AC bonuses? Considerable, but it has it's drawbacks - one could reach a pretty crazy AC by wearing a highly enchanted full plate together with a Ring of Protection +2, a Cloak of Protection +2 and an Amulet of Protection...
The only good solution for this problem would be to allow the player to equip all these items at once if he desires, but only the highest of the AC bonuses would apply to his base AC, the other would be ignored. At least that is how it is handled in 3rdE, and it works nice (though I have to admit there are different types of AC bonuses, and those are stackable with each other).

[Stone Wolf]

This all looks pretty good. At first I thought the damage reduction was a little high, but when combined with the dex penalties it's more balanced. It's too bad there isn't a good (or even tolerable) way to put in a max dex bonus in the game, since that's one of the 3E things I like. This is probably more realistic though. At least this way people can't simply choose the armor that has a max dex bonus that matches the dex bonus they have so that they aren't penalized at all. Errr, not that I've done that myself or anything....

I'm not sure about the studded/regular armor bonuses though. Studded armor will be heavier, but it's less rigid that standard leather armor. Obviously I've never worn either, but I'm guessing that the weight and the rigidity would balance each other out to a degree. Maybe the same penalties for both? Also, I've heard that full plate is perhaps easier to wear than a plate and chain mixture, since the armor somewhat supports itself instead of hanging off the shoulders of the wearer. Just a thought.

Oh, since we're being full-on geeky about the lightning thing, I should point out that electricity should be totally ineffective against iron golems. Conductivity only matters because metallic armor will conduct the electricity to the vulnerable parts within instead of insulating. With an iron golem, there are no vulnerable parts. The electricity would simply pass through the golem and into the ground, much like with a lightning rod. Have I won the geek contest?

[T.G.Maestro]

NOTE:
- Spell Failure table added.

Thank you for your comments Stone Wolf!

It's too bad there isn't a good (or even tolerable) way to put in a max dex bonus in the game, since that's one of the 3E things I like.

You share my thoughts on this matter.

This is probably more realistic though. At least this way people can't simply choose the armor that has a max dex bonus that matches the dex bonus they have so that they aren't penalized at all.

Yes, that was my goal.

I'm not sure about the studded/regular armor bonuses though. Studded armor will be heavier, but it's less rigid that standard leather armor. Obviously I've never worn either, but I'm guessing that the weight and the rigidity would balance each other out to a degree. Maybe the same penalties for both? Also, I've heard that full plate is perhaps easier to wear than a plate and chain mixture, since the armor somewhat supports itself instead of hanging off the shoulders of the wearer. Just a thought.

These are good points, but we have to face that BG2 is not entirely built on RL, and not even pnp. While everything you say will be true either of those, in BG2 Studded Leather>Leather from almost every PoV. Something similar goes to Plate Mail Armors vs. Full Plate Armors - in BG2 Full Plate is considered the king of armors, but it is the most heavier and harder to wear at the same time. If we'd further penalize Plate Mails, we would only achieve that it wouldn't be worth wearing instead of a Full Plate anymore.

[Chevalier]

I like your spell failure table, I don't like single class magic-users wearing armor. Multi-class on the other hand, I don't like that they can't use any armor, but Elven chain.

[Feanor]

Plate Mail Armor
(+0)5 (+1)4 (+2)4 (+2)3 (+4)3 (+5)2 (+6)2

Full Plate Armor
(+0)6 (+1)5 (+2)5 (+3)4 (+4)4 (+5)3 (+6)3

First, there are no +6 plate and full plate armors in BG2. Maximum is +3, I think.

Second, the movement speed penalty should not rely on the armor's weight rather than the enchantment ?

[T.G.Maestro]

First, there are no +6 plate and full plate armors in BG2. Maximum is +3, I think.

Don't forget mod items Feanor.

Second, the movement speed penalty should not rely on the armor's weight rather than the enchantment ?

I agree, but since there are countless exceptions on armor weights in BG2, that is a fairly unreliable factor to base these modifiers on. Enchantments level is simply much more easy to follow (and since it greatly affects weight, it is still a reliable source IMO).

[Feanor]

TG, can you explain why an echanted armor must give you a slashing/piercing/blunt/missile resistance besides the better AC ?

[T.G.Maestro]

TG, can you explain why an echanted armor must give you a slashing/piercing/blunt/missile resistance besides the better AC ?

Heh, now this goes back to a discussion we had long ago, where we discussed the (possible) meaning of AC. You might as well remember, we even touched this subject in that old discussion about improved Dragons...
Anyway, IMHO, the whole AC system was somehow flawed in D&D. The fact that it means "overall defense" (including agility, armor) and thus it never had an effect on damage resistance always bothered me. While dexterity, speed, combat technics play a great role in AC, with that I agree - but to let your armor determine only weather you are hit or not is plain silly. A warrior marching in a Full Plate will be a much easier target than running around in Leather Armor - yet the current AC system tells the opposite. An armors prime purpose is to DEFLECT blows and negate the damage from them, not to help the wearer avoid blows.
Also, there are numerous examples in pnp and in BG2 too where the game works pretty much the way I interpret it: for example take a look at Dragons. They have a pretty good AC, but on the other hand they have considerable damage resistances at the same time. How is that possible, you may ask? Well, the asnwer is: while their "armor" and combat techniques (movement stances, etc.) play a great role in weather or not an opponent can hit them, their thick hide also soaks up part of the damage inflicted on them.
And the same goes for real armors, wearable by players and other characters.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 31 May 2005 - 12:55 AM.

[the bigg]

Re items + rings: according to 3rd ed, you can combine an armour and a ring of protection, but not two rings of protection, and this makes sense to me.
Any ring - cloack - whatever that is not "of protection" gives a Generic bonus and can stack (cheesy, but I don't exactly want to decide what type of bonus - generic or deflection - is appropriate for every item)

Regarding the numbers: Elven Chain shouldn't hinder spellcasting (at least according to 2nd & 3rd ed.), and what about shields? They should have some; but sadly, if you add penalties to dex there won't be much point in using a shield, unless they have a good DR. Penalties to speed and spellcasting are OK, though.

[Feanor]

TG, I would increase the missile resistance for full plates. After all, you would need some damn good arrows to pierce the armor, especially if it is enchanted.

Edited : Reason why I say this : because, even if the arrow penetrates the armor, the plate will strongly reduce the force of impact.

Edited by Feanor, 31 May 2005 - 03:22 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Re items + rings: according to 3rd ed, you can combine an armour and a ring of protection, but not two rings of protection, and this makes sense to me.
Any ring - cloack - whatever that is not "of protection" gives a Generic bonus and can stack (cheesy, but I don't exactly want to decide what type of bonus - generic or deflection - is appropriate for every item)

Yes, even in BG2 it is possible to stack AC bonuses, but they should be different types. AC bonuses from "Protection" items and armor Enchantment Level bonuses won't stack, but effects from any other items granting a simple AC bonus does.
To be honest, I'd be interested how the engine recognizes these "different" types of AC bonuses - some clarification here would be appreciated.

Regarding the numbers: Elven Chain shouldn't hinder spellcasting (at least according to 2nd & 3rd ed.),

OK, I'll correct that.

what about shields? They should have some; but sadly, if you add penalties to dex there won't be much point in using a shield, unless they have a good DR.

I don't intend to add damage resistance to shields. Unlike armors, their main function is to help the character avoid direct blows to his body, and thus it would be better to let them grant AC bonuses only. Including shields to this system would be problematic from any PoV though: if we assign movenet rate and DEX penalties to them, we should already add those to heavier weapons too - those can hinder free movement as much as a medium shield. The only thing I'd find acceptable for shields is the spellcasting failure, but again, in that case the same should go for larger weapons too...