21 replies to this topic

[Sir Kalthorine]

...without what?

Simple question this one - as Chrysta is a "Druidic Thief", with set Druidic spells implemented as abilities accessible through her Innate Abilities list, what are people's opinions as to what the "must-have" druidic spells are at each spell level?

Bear in mind in your replies that Chrysta will only ever have a maximum of 4 or 5 spells at each level, and won't ever gain more than 1 or 2 new spells each time she levels up.

Note as well that I already have my own opinions on this one and a version of Chrysta already exists with my ideas in place. However, if I discover that a lot of people have an opinion different to my own I am flexible enough to take their views into account before deciding on the final list. And no I'm not going to put my own set of spell choices here for people to check first - I don't want to have an undue influence on what people choose!

[Jyzabyl]

Any of the summoning spells, but Insect Plague is my absolute favourite Druid spell. A must have when battling magic casters.

[Cantrip]

1st level: Entangle, Shillelagh, Doom, Infravision (Druid Version)
2nd level: Barkskin, Charm Person or Mammal, Goodberry, Flame Blade
3rd level: Zone of Sweet Air, Call Lightning, Hold Animal, Cure Disease
4th level: Poison, Call Woodland Beings, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison
5th level: Pixie Dust, Iron Skins, Insect Plague, Magic Resistance
6th level: Conjure Animals, Dolorous Decay, Fire Seeds, Physical Mirror
7th level: Regeneration, Nature's Beauty, Earthquake, Conjure Earth Elemental
Quest: Greater Elemental Summoning, Storm of Vengeance, Aura of Flaming Death, Earth Elemental Form.

Since I hate Insect Plague type spells, I would replace it with "Mass Cure".
But a lot of people like this uber-powerful spell, so I'm in the minority here.

Edited by Cantrip, 20 May 2005 - 04:33 AM.

[Lord Ernie]

Hmmm... a question: Sir K. Seeing as they are implemented as Special Abilities, which is to say without memorization, will they be used as a Sorcerer uses his spells, with each level having a limited number of spells used per day? Or will each spell be given a fixed number of uses?

Anyway, most useful / powerful druidic spells? All right, off the top of my head:

Level 1: Entangle, Armor of Faith, Doom
Level 2: Resist Fire/Cold, Slow Poison, Charm Personal or Animal
Level 3: Zone of Sweet Air, Cure Disease, Protection from Fire
Level 4: Death Ward, Call Woodland Beings
Level 5: Iron Skins, Insect Plague, Mass Cure, True Seeing
Level 6: Heal, Harm
Level 7: Nature's Beauty, Regeneration, Sunray

Note I left out the cure spells from the first few levels.

[Sir Kalthorine]

Hmmm... a question: Sir K. Seeing as they are implemented as Special Abilities, which is to say without memorization, will they be used as a Sorcerer uses his spells, with each level having a limited number of spells used per day? Or will each spell be given a fixed number of uses?

Not as flexible as that, sadly... although I would be more flexible if I if I could.

Instead, Chrysta only ever has one use per day of each spell she gets (with the exception of 2 x CLW per day which she has access to from the start), with no flexibility as to choice of spell. This is partly due to engine limitations, but also partly a conscious choice to limit her powers (she is no Druidic Sorceror, I can tell you that much! )

[Lord Ernie]

Fair enough. A sorcerer-like approach would indeed be too powerful (IMO, the sorc as it is is overpowered, let alone the druidic sorc). One use / day is, then again, not very much. It'll have to do, I suppose.

One more question: how are you gonna handle level drain?

[Sir Kalthorine]

One more question: how are you gonna handle level drain?

Without going into too much detail... via scripting

[Andyr]

If you want to emphasise her druidic nature, I'd just make picks from the Animal and Plant spheres of spells.

[Sir Kalthorine]

If you want to emphasise her druidic nature, I'd just make picks from the Animal and Plant spheres of spells.

Which is, indeed, where most of her currently allocated spell like abilities are chosen from, rather than simply taking the "ooh lets pick all the ubah spells!" approach. Nice to see we are on the same wavelength, Andy :thumb:

[Togashi Renshi]

Like Andyr said, Plant & Animal spheres are good. What about Chaos, perhaps (I dunno, seeing as she's rather chaotic....)?

[insomnia]

L1: Cure Light Wounds, Shillelagh, Entangle
L2: Barkskin, Charm Person/Mammal, Slow Poison, Goodberries
L3: Call Lightning, Cure Disease, Summon Insects
L4: Neutralize Poison, Call Woodland Beings, Animal Summoning 1
L5: Cure Critical Wounds, Animal Summoning 2, Insect Plague, Pixie Dust
L6: Heal, Conjure Animals, Dolorous Decay
L7: Creeping Doom, Conjure Earth Elemental, Nature's Beauty

[Sillara]

What spells I use from my druid depends upon who else is in the party. If I have a cleric, then my druid gets more offensive/summoning spells. If I have a paladin to handle the undead, then my druid gets moved into primary healer mode.

So, whichever route you went with Chrysta, I could use her in a party which needed that sort of druid.

On the other hand, she could be my primary thief, making her druidic abilities simply bonus! :^^:


Sillara

[Sir Kalthorine]

Nice "Go with the Flow" attitude there Sillara :thumb:

[smugmode]And without giving too much away, the lists of spells other people are coming up with is reassuring as well. Yay! [/smugmode]

[Deathsangel]

Okay, warning this may not be so nice, but uh....

Even with the limitations you give to her spell progression I kind of think her a bit overpowered with her thief abilities and druid spells together.

Or will she have impendements on her thief abilities? Might be wrong topic to ask though.

Hope you don't mind the comment and the somewhat unclear post

[Sir Kalthorine]

Okay, warning this may not be so nice, but uh....

I have never, nor will ever, do anything other than encourage constructive criticism. Fire away.

Even with the limitations you give to her spell progression I kind of think her a bit overpowered with her thief abilities and druid spells together.

I would disagree here, for reasons already outlined (zero choice as to which spells, no wisdom bonus, and much fewer spells than a druid [or, for that matter, a multiclass cleric/thief... I checked!] at an equivalent xp level), and those outlined below. She also does not gain any druidic shape change abilities - i.e. her only druidic abilities are the spells and access to druid-only items. She also has fewer hit points than a druid, using the Thief's d6 per level.

Or will she have impendements on her thief abilities?

She will, yes. In addition to progressing as an assassin in terms of only 15 points to allocate per level, she also has an initial thieving 20 point penalty built into her scores, a lower initial backstab multiplier, and (looking ahead to ToB) no access to the full range of Thief HLAs (in particular, she will not have access to "Use Any Item").

If it helps, consider her as a kind of cleric/thief who happens to have access to druidic rather than clerical spells, can't choose what spells she has, and who has fewer spells AND lower thieving ability scores than a cleric/thief with the same amount of experience... oh, and who can't wear heavy armour or turn undead. I think you will see that viewing her in that way hardly makes her seem overpowered.

By the way... she also has other innate disadvantages such as a susceptibility to fire and certain saving throw penalties. As you can see, Chrysta being overpowered isn't really going to be an issue.

Hope you don't mind the comment and the somewhat unclear post

Not at all! I hope I have put your mind at rest.

<Sir K sits back and waits for the cries of "Hey she is totaly nerfed!" >

[Deathsangel]

<Sir K sits back and waits for the cries of "Hey she is totaly nerfed!" >

If you wish it... Hey, She is totaly nerfed!

But to get back to my point that nerfing makes it better. I 'feared' for a thief leveling up with druid abilities, but now that I hear about her impedements in the thief class I say that all my arguments are none of void.

[Feanor]

I would advise against Nature's Beauty and Creeping Doom since they are extremely powerful...

[Idobek]

She also does not gain any druidic shape change abilities - i.e. her only druidic abilities are the spells and access to druid-only items.

Have you considered how you are going to give her access to druid-only items? I'm pretty sure it is going to require quite a bit of hackery to get this working correctly, and then you may have compatibilty issues with other mods.

[Sir Kalthorine]

Have you considered how you are going to give her access to druid-only items? I'm pretty sure it is going to require quite a bit of hackery to get this working correctly, and then you may have compatibilty issues with other mods.

Considered and tested - at least in draft. The method currently being used, involving bitwise item patching (and minor scripting additions), is by no means ideal but will certainly serve more than adequately if a better method cannot be found. Not mentioning or dealing with items by filename, or overwriting existing files, means there shouldn't be any unsolvable mod compatibility issues.

[Togashi Renshi]

Wha...? No Use Any Item??? Every type of rogue has that!
(and just to keep things going)
Hey, she is totally nerfed!

Edited by Togashi Renshi, 27 May 2005 - 11:15 AM.