32 replies to this topic

[-JR-]

Quite frankly, if drow feel no compunction about murder, tortue and sex with demons, I can't see them feeling very guilty about raping one of the 'lesser' races. Besides, drow males who'd been oppressed, emasculated and raped themselves all of their lives, probably would find pleasure in having such power over a female of any race.

My thoughts exactly. And if I remember correctly, it was confirmed by multiple sources, but I wouldn't be able to provide the names.

Also, in one of the Drizzt books it mentions human blood being brought into a House's gene pool to increase the physical strength and durability of its warriors. And judging by the mindset of this maniac House, I would assume it was not willingly. I forget the name of the plot-integral (half?) drow member, but it was the only person other than Drizzt to defeat Thibbeldorf Pwent in single combat.

[i30817]

D&D is a parody of normal morality (even logically due to the present and watchful gods). Don't expect any grey from their "evil" races.

[Almateria]

Grey is for neutral races! Also, rape is evil and drows are evil, therefore drows can and do rape elves.

[Dakk]

Drows have certainly no Problem to rape someone.

They have. In "Daughter of the Drow" from "Starlight and Shadows" series it is clearly stated that even the most sadistic drow are reluctant to this.

D&D is a parody of normal morality (even logically due to the present and watchful gods). Don't expect any grey from their "evil" races.

Grey is for neutral races! Also, rape is evil and drows are evil, therefore drows can and do rape elves.

As Feanor points out, in Daughter of the Drow it is clearly stated that rape is not par for the course for drow.

[...]The fighter's eyes widened as the meaning of the wizard's words became clear. Drow routinely inflicted horrors upon their own people and slaughtered the surface races merely for the pleasure of the kill, but what Nisstyre suggested was beyond the unspoken code of dark-elven behavior. No female, not even one conquered in battle, was taken against her will. Centuries of indoctrination had forged a taboo that was seldom questioned and rarely violated. Females wielded power in their society, and all female drow, even commoners, were viewed as the mortal incarnations of Lloth.

(my underscore)
My take is that drow women are basically not raped at all (by drow), and even rape of a female of another race would be very unusual.

[i30817]

Oh, please. That's just the mirror of the normal male behavior, another lazy projection from WoC.

You don't see conquering armies raping men or boys openly no matter how "evil" (for instance, lets use the khmer rouge in Cambodia, after the US bombardments, just as a example) they are, do you?

The whole concept of alignment grates me something huge, specifically because it's quantifying and reifying something that should not be in the name of mechanics and their "lore" and i use the word loosely.

It's why you get people asking for portraits that "look evil" or "look good". Did Cheney "look evil" to you?

Edited by i30817, 23 November 2011 - 09:39 PM.

[Dakk]

I quote a canon Forgotten Realms novel, and you cite Cambodia, US bombardments and.. Dick Cheney?

I'm sorry, somewhere in that swamp of OT something got lost.

EDIT: And please, you use the Khmer as an "evil" (your air-quotes) entity that supposedly didn't go raping? They really didn't need to, they'd already killed everyone.

Cambodia genocide: Khmer Rouge trio go on trial
http://en.wikipedia....gainst_humanity
http://en.wikipedia...._Rouge#Genocide

Edited by Dakk, 24 November 2011 - 01:57 AM.

[i30817]

you cited a novel, that just reversed the normal attitudes of human males towards homosexual rape.

Armies (when they mass rape), don't go about raping men. I used the khmer rouge because they were undoubtedly "evil" (see i use quotes because i dislike the word, just i dislike "good"), and still, didn't mass rape. I could have used a army from some african shithole that DOES rape, and they still would probably not rape men/boys as policy (occasionally maybe)

Transpose the attitude to a female dominated army and you get:

No female[male], not even one conquered in battle, was taken against her[his] will. Centuries of indoctrination had forged a taboo that was seldom questioned and rarely violated.

And it's a stupid, and lazy simile. Would the chaotic evil race females, stronger than the males, give a shit about the females of another race? Only as it gives ideas to their males. The bit about all females being viewed as incarnation of lolth also makes no sense, if they are not drow - a weak support for a rather huge taboo that goes against the natural inclinations of the race for chaos and evil.

Maybe Lolth doesn't like it. except, that doesn't make any fucking sense, considering she is the greater goddess of evil and chaos. If the normal drow have few reasons to care, Lolth has even less.

Resuming: the writer is a idiot, that took the shortcut of using a human taboo to characterize a "chaotic evil" race. I quote evil here, because "evil races" are a D&D thing that also doesn't make much sense except if you take it as the gods direct influence over the race.

BTW, before you jump all over my use of the word "race", i'm using it because species will not do, since everyone can interbreed in D&D apparently.

TL/DR: alignment systems suck, especially when they are (badly) generalized to entire societies. It's a logical consequence of acting gods that care about ethics, but introduces alot of small contradictions that lazy writers gloss over.

Edited by i30817, 24 November 2011 - 05:11 AM.

[Dakk]

My take is that drow women are basically not raped at all (by drow), and even rape of a female of another race would be very unusual.

BTW, before you jump all over my use of the word "race", i'm using it because species will not do, since everyone can interbreed in D&D apparently.

Yeah I'm not sure why I would do any jumping

[-JR-]

Political needling has no place here. Drop it.

It wouldn't be terribly surprising if different sources made different claims, but I interpreted the quote as referring to females within the species. Though I admit I forget the exact context.

Something to keep in mind is that even the strictest cultural norms can be and often are violated, presumably doubly so among fantastically chaotic cultures. Often enough, I'd wager, to produce the occasional half-drow, even if we extend the quote to women of other species and subspecies.

[oralpain]

D&D is a parody of normal morality (even logically due to the present and watchful gods). Don't expect any grey from their "evil" races.

I don't agree.

(A)D&D morality can be as broad or narrow, as flexible or as immutable, as any given DM/group deems it to be.

There is plenty of room for shades of gray, and never has an "evil" alignment implied, in and of itself, an absence of good, or vice versa.

You don't see conquering armies raping men or boys openly no matter how "evil" (for instance, lets use the khmer rouge in Cambodia, after the US bombardments, just as a example) they are, do you?

Such things are not totaly unheard of. Less common than the systematic rape of women, for a variety of reasons, but not unheard of. Biggest reason it's not a matter of policy is because males cannot give birth, so the lasting effects on the enemy society are usually small, which in turn limits it's appeal as a strategy.

As for the alignment of rape, most would consider it an evil act, but it's not limited to evil beings and not all evil beings are going to be tolerant of it.

The whole concept of alignment grates me something huge, specifically because it's quantifying and reifying something that should not be in the name of mechanics and their "lore" and i use the word loosely.

It's why you get people asking for portraits that "look evil" or "look good". Did Cheney "look evil" to you?

I'm not sure your concept of alignment matches the intended use of it, or how it's used in practice.

People do tend to misinterpret the place alignment has, or even confuse it with entirely different aspects of a character. Alignment is not personality or style, and has no outward appearance.

[i30817]

That's how it should be, but not as it IS generally.

For example, lets change the setting entirely.

Take star wars and the "force".
Why exactly are Siths riddled by cancerous sores? Why do they have the ridiculous "siiiithering" name?

There are justifications in-setting, but they are thin veneers over a pandering for the fans to know who is "evil" and who is "good".
I disapprove of any mechanic that promotes lazy narratives.

Edited by i30817, 12 December 2011 - 08:17 AM.

[Tempest]

This is getting out of hand. If you really want to describe real-world politics of what is evil and what all rape entails, please do so via PM or elsewhere entirely. This isn't the place for that. As a matter of fact, this isn't the place to discuss rape at all, even in a fictional setting, and as such I am closing this thread.

Whether drow commit rape regularly if at all is up to you to decide. Please don't talk about it here.

Edited by Tempest, 12 December 2011 - 02:00 PM.