55 replies to this topic

[Michel]

Well... You can always have a fight with a vampire in a room with furniture. Then when the fight is over and the vampire retreats have the player smash the furniture to create stakes himself.

[Quitch]

Still, I disagree with the whole "no stakes near a vampire".  Maybe not in the den of the Vampire, because that makes sense.  However, not making them available in-Windspear will make it unplayable, sicne there are a proportioned amount of stakes-to-stakeable vampires in the game.

Not to mention that the vampires themselves would have no way of knowing whether you were carrying stakes or not. If a party of adventurers invaded my home I'd presume that they were carrying, how about you?

[Quitch]

wouldent that be "if i was a vampire i would expect a party of adventurers to bring there own stakes" 

Quite.

[Eon Blue Apocalypse]

stakes are must-have equipment for aspiring adventures, that's realm's lore, right?

[Mr.WeaseL]

Then they should be made available in a shop somewhere. That way the player must decide for his own wether or not to buy stakes, but he won't be screwed by the fact that he thought about bringing stakes but used up all available ones in the game.

[Quitch]

Why must a party have stakes available if fighting vampires?

[Hendryk]

If I were a vampire, I'd prefer stone furniture and metal accessories within my habitation. Still, there's probably some large item somewhere in the dungeon that's made of wood. It's just up to the player to realize that the large oaken chest or the mahogany desk is not simply an empty container but an item in itself which, if attacked with an axe or heavy sword, will yield a useful number of stakes.

[rreinier]

Still, I disagree with the whole "no stakes near a vampire".  Maybe not in the den of the Vampire, because that makes sense.  However, not making them available in-Windspear will make it unplayable, sicne there are a proportioned amount of stakes-to-stakeable vampires in the game.

Not true. You get enough stakes for all of Chapter 6 from Elhan, and find at least two more in Bodhi's lair. You also have a leftover stake after chapter 3, which you can use in Spellhold, but then salvage another stake from Kurtulmak's kobolds. Also, I think there are stakes at Bodhi's in chapter 3.

BTW, doesn't the Saradush Temple sell stakes? Or only Holy Water?

I do agree that any self-respecting, non-metagaming adventurer should have a few stakes in his backpack.

And making stakes on-site is problematic, since they have to be sharpened, then fire-hardened, and I think also blessed, but I'm not sure about that one. All of which is not impossible, of course, but most 3INT barbarians wouldn't think of it.
Then again, they wouldn't think of bringing stakes either...

[Cuv]

BTW, doesn't the Saradush Temple sell stakes? Or only Holy Water?

The temple in Saradush only sells Holy Water.

Cuv

[Gothic Rose]

Still, I disagree with the whole "no stakes near a vampire".  Maybe not in the den of the Vampire, because that makes sense.  However, not making them available in-Windspear will make it unplayable, sicne there are a proportioned amount of stakes-to-stakeable vampires in the game.

Not true. You get enough stakes for all of Chapter 6 from Elhan, and find at least two more in Bodhi's lair. You also have a leftover stake after chapter 3, which you can use in Spellhold, but then salvage another stake from Kurtulmak's kobolds. Also, I think there are stakes at Bodhi's in chapter 3.

BTW, doesn't the Saradush Temple sell stakes? Or only Holy Water?

I do agree that any self-respecting, non-metagaming adventurer should have a few stakes in his backpack.

And making stakes on-site is problematic, since they have to be sharpened, then fire-hardened, and I think also blessed, but I'm not sure about that one. All of which is not impossible, of course, but most 3INT barbarians wouldn't think of it.
Then again, they wouldn't think of bringing stakes either...

Temple of Helm in the Bridge district sells em.

And stakes in DnD have to be sharp pointy pieces of wood. Fire hardening helps keep the wood together while it is being driven between ribs, but is not necessary. Blessing is good if you want a little extra OOMPH to your staking.

I think that, while it makes more sense IN GAME to not have stakes lying around handily, it's necessary for a CRPG. Why? Because most players are stupid. No offense to anyone here - you're not most players.

But you need to ensure that stakes are available to the PC. Otherwise, said player will get pissed about not being able to kill said vampire. Stakes do disintegrate if dropped, and there are a limited number in the game. So it's possible to not have any on hand, or available. Hard, yes, but not impossible.

And as for keeping them in your backpack - If it was a normal backpack, yes. But the way the inventory system works, it's just cruel to force someone to carry around sharp sticks on the off chance of randomly encountering a vampire. At least, it is until you get a bag of holding - which can take quite some time.

[Quitch]

Why do we have to provide equipment that allows players to kill the creatures we throw at them?

[hlidskialf]

Why do we have to provide equipment that allows players to kill the creatures we throw at them?

Because you haven't provided the player's character with the ability we all have in RL, to make a pointy stick.

[Gothic Rose]

Why do we have to provide equipment that allows players to kill the creatures we throw at them?

Because you haven't provided the player's character with the ability we all have in RL, to make a pointy stick.

Exactly. If you can make it so that the PC can smash furniture into stakes, then do it that way by all means. Or even chop down a tree.

But if you don't do that, and you expect that the player is going to carry around sticks in their -extremely- limited inventory, then you'll be disappointed.

Let's take a look at this from the perpsective of you being the DM. Your players are up against a vampire. They know the basics - fire sunlight, holy water, turning, stake through the heart.

You could place the vampire in a stone dungeon, with no wood at all. In the middle of a desert. And you know what? THe PC's will still probably be able to stake the vampire. Because they carry at least some wooden items - it's pretty much a guarantee.

It's not that way in a CRPG though. PCs do not have the same freedom of doing whatever they are doing that a player has in a tabletop game.

In tabletop, if the players randomly run into a vampire, they can improvise a stake.

In SoA/ToB, they can't. Unless the player KNOWS that there are vampires ahead, and makes sure to carry a few stakes, they're gonna be kinda screwed.

Again, yes, a player -could- keep stakes around for the entire game on the off chance of meeting a vamp.

I don't think many people do that though - inventory space is limited - even with a bag of holding.

[Quitch]

Why do we have to provide equipment that allows players to kill the creatures we throw at them?

Because you haven't provided the player's character with the ability we all have in RL, to make a pointy stick.

Exactly. If you can make it so that the PC can smash furniture into stakes, then do it that way by all means. Or even chop down a tree.

But if you don't do that, and you expect that the player is going to carry around sticks in their -extremely- limited inventory, then you'll be disappointed.

Let's take a look at this from the perpsective of you being the DM. Your players are up against a vampire. They know the basics - fire sunlight, holy water, turning, stake through the heart.

You could place the vampire in a stone dungeon, with no wood at all. In the middle of a desert. And you know what? THe PC's will still probably be able to stake the vampire. Because they carry at least some wooden items - it's pretty much a guarantee.

It's not that way in a CRPG though. PCs do not have the same freedom of doing whatever they are doing that a player has in a tabletop game.

In tabletop, if the players randomly run into a vampire, they can improvise a stake.

In SoA/ToB, they can't. Unless the player KNOWS that there are vampires ahead, and makes sure to carry a few stakes, they're gonna be kinda screwed.

Again, yes, a player -could- keep stakes around for the entire game on the off chance of meeting a vamp.

I don't think many people do that though - inventory space is limited - even with a bag of holding.

I still fail to see your point. If we have Magic Golems, why do we need to have normal weapons nearby for you to kill them? Why do you need to be able to kill them at all?

The same for vampires, why would they keep wooden furniture? Why should you be able to kill them?

[Keltosh]

It's the old "BWAHAHAHAH KILL'EM ALL" syndrome. Many seems to have it. Especially (no offence intended) americans ....
For me.. it's perfectly logical you might not be able to kill vampires. Just destroying their physical form is enough. Or even just fleeing...

Edited by Keltosh, 13 December 2004 - 02:01 PM.

[Gothic Rose]

Why should you provide the ability to kill foes? Because you cannot have a true to form fully interactable environtment.

Suspension of Reality - Let's assume Faerun is the real world, and the evens of the BG series are happening. Ok?

Now, you're in a dungeon. And there are vampires, no wooden furniture (highly unlikely, but lets say there is none.), and you have no stakes. You've discorporated them, and tracked em to their coffins, where they are reforming.

To keep them off your back (Because any good adventurer knows that you should -never- leave enemies behind you; they WILL bite you in the arse, no pun intended), you need to stake them. So what do you do?

Break your sounding pole (also known as the ubiquitous 10 foot pole) and stake em. Or, you Cut a torch, and use that. Or hell, the strongest member of your party takes the mages staff and jams it into the vamps pasty chests, dusting them, and hands it back to the mage, covered in nasty gore. Whatever.

The point is, you have those options open to you.

In a video game, you don't.

You want better roleplaying? Then provide me with a fully interactable environment, where I can literally do anything with anything. If you cannot do that, then provide me with the easiest way of taking care of concerns - ala, proper gear. I'm not saying make it easy to find. Hell, have it in a secret room, whatever. But have it there.

As for the arguement that you should carry stakes and holy water around everywhere, I say that's not true. I have run several PnP DnD games. I've played in many more. I have NEVER expected my players to carry stakes, holy water, garlic, blah blah. Never. Nor have I ever had to carry it - that's not to say that I've never fought vamps. But there's always the ability to make what you need, using knives, wood, and the cleric/paladin spell Bless Water, which makes holy water. Garlic can be bought from farmers, so on so forth.

Above, I mentioned why it would be highly unlikely for a vampire to not have some wood in their lair. Why do I say that? Because no matter what anyone says, vampires are creatures of the FLESH. They do enjoy the fine things in life (hence why they tend to be more city-ish undead than most), and frankly, stone furniture is VERY uncomfortable. And it's dead heavy too. While, yes, vampires are stronger than humans, they are not necessarily so strong that they can move a stone chair (which will weigh at least 100 pounds, not to mention the fact that it's a horrible design that's very fragile unless it's a solid block, in which case it'll be much heavier) without some measure of effort. I'm not strong, but if I want to move a wooden chair, it's virtually no effort at all.

I guess the big argument of why the means of killing foes should be made available is this: Because they are available in a real DnD game. Because the characters in a Pen and Paper game can get what they need. Easily. As easy as snapping a branch off of a tree.

[Drugar]

I've always wondered why stakes dissapear from the game when you use 'em. It's not like the dying vampire disintegrates the stake too.
If you could make the state a re-usable item you'd only have to carry one, which doesn't take up a whole lot of space. And you can call it Mr Pointy!

Also, I don't know where you meet these vampires, or if anyone knows they're there, but if they're known the Questgiver could advise some anti-vampire equipment, which should be available in a nearby temple. It requires some reading by players, wihch keeps them on their toes, and supplies them with a solution to the problem without it sounding too "CRPG-ish".
And those that don't pay attention...that's their problem.

[Avenger_teambg]

Still, I disagree with the whole "no stakes near a vampire".  Maybe not in the den of the Vampire, because that makes sense.  However, not making them available in-Windspear will make it unplayable, sicne there are a proportioned amount of stakes-to-stakeable vampires in the game.

The best solution would be to find stakes (or stuff that could be carved into a stake) all around.

[Cuv]

Still, I disagree with the whole "no stakes near a vampire".  Maybe not in the den of the Vampire, because that makes sense.  However, not making them available in-Windspear will make it unplayable, sicne there are a proportioned amount of stakes-to-stakeable vampires in the game.

The best solution would be to find stakes (or stuff that could be carved into a stake) all around.

There will be one set of stakes available in the dungeon... it is plot related. Other than that, you are just out of luck if you neglected to bring any other ones and have need of them. Any good adventurer worth his salt should keep stakes around if there is a likelyhood of running into vampires

I just played through all of SoA and straight into ToB... and I still have plenty of stakes in my bag of holding left over from the Bhodi encounter. I read Elminster's Ecologies and know that I might encounter magic golems... so I kept some nice normal weapons that my people can use despite the fact that the game designers will provide them for me. It's about role playing. If you really want to power game or hack n slash... then cheat them in. But if you want to role play... then stakes might be the least of your worries with regards to neglected equipment in RTW, stakes were just an example

Cuv