38 replies to this topic

[Deathsangel]

*Heavy spoilers*

In my idea:

The elves do not that you betrayed them, as there is no survivor left. With the ring of charisma any PC can tell them it was the drow. This because the Drow will betray them before entering the city. Thus the surface elves in the city do not know of your in-between short alliance with the Drow. Naturally the Avatar of Rillfane will know this and will have something to say about this, but as he says he needs someone to go after Jon. He will be silent about your betrayal to his followers if you save the tree of life for him. You have to accept or else all the surface elves and Rillfane will go hostile (that is threat; no dialog option against it, crediting the PC that wisdom).

Thus I have no Drow in the city, they won't destroy your bodies and the Surface Elves don't know. An evil PC in a hero jacket, just like you say it can be done. It means that there is in between more questing for evil PC, but in the end he'll go the same path as the good guys, much alike in the game: Arcanum. In the end there is no distiction between good and bad for they have one goal and the 'good' people *have* to forgive bad PC for they need him, though they can force him through means. That is the task of Rillfane.

Do you understand that there is no worries for bodies lying without live on the ground. No Drow present and the Surface Elves see you as a hero, for they do not know of your old alliance with the Drow and you do save the city from Irenicus's Army.

[Lord Kain]

ok Deathsangel, in your idea where is the PC allied with the Drow, because I don't actually see it.

From previous posts I gather, you ally with the Drow to find the Lanthorn, (which the PC isn't aware of until Ethan asks him to find it) So what? the only evil bit you get to do is kill a band of elves before entering the city. Also assuming the Drow know of the Lanthorn and know that you need it to enter the city.

If your helping the drow while attacking the city, I doubt the elves are even going stop, and tell you how to summon the avatar. They'd see you as part of the army attacking the city. Even though none of them live to tell of your betrayal they also don't stop to tell thier murderer. Now this can relate back to if you made a deal with the lessor demon lord using the dragon eggs. Perhaps he could open the door. But then he and you would have to know you'd need some magical door's forced opened in the future.

[Deathsangel]

ok Deathsangel, in your idea where is the PC allied with the Drow, because I don't actually see it.

From previous posts I gather, you ally with the Drow to find the Lanthorn, (which the PC isn't aware of until Ethan asks him to find it) So what? the only evil bit you get to do is kill a band of elves before entering the city. Also assuming the Drow know of the Lanthorn and know that you need it to enter the city.

This is actually quite right. There are some previous quests as to gain a good standing in the Drow society, but at the end of getting the lanthorn it simply stops, for you are betrayed.

Not all goes well when being evil. Yes it doesn't always go well. That isn't the message MftW is going to carry out. Just that it should be possible to play evil and it is more then logical you get betrayed sometimes. Don't worry it isn't with all the new quests, not at all

Torn's idea goes much further, but due to the enormous coding stuff that is involved and RP wise I am against the idea to attack with the Drow Suldenessalar

Edited by Deathsangel, 05 June 2005 - 01:30 PM.

[Torn]

Okay... since it may in fact be a logistical problem to have the Drow actually occupy Suldanessallar, here's another option:
The drow invade the main part of Suldanessallar (the first screen), and kill things. The party goes around doing something (I'm not too sure - but it shouldn't be going after the items to open the gate etc, because they wouldn't know about that). After a certain point (either they complete a quest or a timer goes off), a group of surface elves activates the Avatar of Rillifane.
He kills off all of the Drow as well as Jon's creatures, and tries to kill the party as well. The party has to run away from the Avatar (as it is unkillable) and through the gates into the Tree of Life area.

That way, there aren't any issues with Lloth sucking the tree of life dry, or killing you in your sleep. We can check out the intro text of ToB, but I don't think there are any major problems with that - I believe it mentions just 'the elves', and therefore could refer to either group. Or we can do the thing of suppressing the ToB intro movie.

Regardless, this is a fairly minor (and distant) point. I'm much more in favour of starting work on what we are decided on

[Hendryk]

I have a severe problem believing that the surface elves, battered and leaderless as they are, could wrest the goblet from the black dragon, for one thing. Or survive the golems and rakshasa to get the other two items for that matter. So Lolth would be able to tell you (via Mother Ardule or Phaere, whichever survived) that the temple must be opened. She was of the Seldarine, after all, and would remember such things. As for the avatar of Rillifane, it would not be delighted to meet you in the circs but the PC *is* after Jon's throat after all and Rillifane is powerless against Irenicus while the PC isn't. And Irenicus, who is about to kill the ToL, is a much worse and more immediate threat than the PC, even as an ally of the drow. So a deal could be struck there although it wouldn't extend to the drow allies. The forest spirits would kill or expel them just as they do Irenicus' minions. So the surface elves would be back in charge after the ToL/hell sequence and, as stupidly fair-minded as she is, Ellesime wouldn't destroy your bodies either. She would, certainly, kick you right out of town though but might - on instruction from Rillifane, perhaps - kick the party into the prophetic grove to start ToB. She might also hand you instructions found on the body of the drow general (Solaufein?) from the the matron mother, telling her boy to kill you the instant Irenicus is dead. This, from Ellesime's pov, to prove to you how dumb you were to trust the drow at all, at all, at all. And to tie up any loose plot ends.

Of course, while in strict logic, the drow ought to stay allied with party until Irenicus is dead, they might be arrogant enough (following Deathangel's idea) to decide that once you've retrieved the Lanthorn, they don't need you any more. In that case, there might be an option to just give them the bloody thing and let them open the way. They'd enter first, the screen would shake a couple of times and then the sole survivior of the drow invaders (Mother A, Solaufein or maybe just a common soldier) would run back out of Sul and tell you to proceed. Seems the drow weren't welcomed as Jon's allies and weren't as competent to deal with his creatures as they thought, so there'd be dead drow scattered over the city but otherwise, no one in town knowing any better, matters could go as per the vanilla game. The PC would just have to lie a bit and say he/she followed the drow rather than accompanied them.

Either way, the drow prove treacherous at some point, as they should. And the PC will get the old schnozolla rubbed in that, even if their treachery doesn't prove very effective. And the game can be completed even after you've killed Elhan and his pals on first meeting them. That's about the best a surfacer could hope for from an alliance with drow, I think.

[fallen_demon]

Sorry it took me so long to get back, I was trying to recover the actual thread but failed.

Yes, we were trying to make a chance to join the drow in The Dark Elves (an old mod project that a I began, a few other peopleI were working on and I led into the ground that started as a thread in the mod ideas forum here, then Teambg, then COM, which would let the PC play as a drow)

We weren't having the drow betray Irenicus persay, but rather played off the fact that drow houses are always competing with eachother and created a new house ranked directly below despera that wanted to ursurp their rivals and certainly didn't want them doing something so important. Planning to invade Suldanessar themselves, this new house gets the pc to betray despera and side with them. We were unsure of how the PC would get into the elven city but had a few (weak) ideas floating around, and afterwards the drow would be available as an ally against Bhodi. We also had a fairly complex plotline of this new house and how the pc would get involved with them, but that's irrelivant. Anyway this new house would want the pc alive and would ressurect him/her at the temple of Lloth, where SOA would end with Ellesime's sacrafice.

We hadn't really talked about the actual chapter 7 or ToB movie. In my head though you would sacrafice the 3 artifacts in a ritual to temporarily weakan the god and allow Lloth to open the gate for you, then she would corrupt and draw power from the tree, both of which I now find much stupider.

If any of this sounds confusing, stupid and/or incompatible with realms lore or ingame stuff, The Dark Elves development was unnorganized and very, very poorly run, and there was a reason, even though I know it dissapointed people, that I pulled the plug on it. Plus its after 1 and I haven't slept more that 4 hours a night in a week, so I'm not making sense as a whole.

[Deathsangel]

Regardless, this is a fairly minor (and distant) point.  I'm much more in favour of starting work on what we are decided on

I do agree we will start with what we are decided on. However, it is wise to talk about other things, so that when we get there we know what we want and are not on hold due to deciding what to do (which is the reason I am working on Ian waiting on the new sound appointment of Ariena and her Kit)

It seems apparently logic to strike a deal with Rillfane for Irenicus is indeed the greater threat. Thus is the proposal of myself and Hendryk. The point where the Drow betray you seems now more the discussion in my eyes then that they stay allied and I believe that a good conclusion. Let us continue discussing for I value this greatly. :thumb:

[fallen_demon]

Regardless, this is a fairly minor (and distant) point.  I'm much more in favour of starting work on what we are decided on

I do agree we will start with what we are decided on. However, it is wise to talk about other things, so that when we get there we know what we want and are not on hold due to deciding what to do (which is the reason I am working on Ian waiting on the new sound appointment of Ariena and her Kit)

It seems apparently logic to strike a deal with Rillfane for Irenicus is indeed the greater threat. Thus is the proposal of myself and Hendryk. The point where the Drow betray you seems now more the discussion in my eyes then that they stay allied and I believe that a good conclusion. Let us continue discussing for I value this greatly. :thumb:

I think upon gaining access to the elven city would be good.

[Hendryk]

I think upon gaining access to the elven city would be good.

Um... granted that you haven't made up that sleep deficit you mentioned before, a couple of reasons for thinking this is the right time for drow betrayal would better help move the conversation along.

[Torn]

Hendryk,

That's a good point. I like your way of handling things. Cheers

DA? Shall we go with that then?

Edited by Torn, 06 June 2005 - 10:53 PM.

[Deathsangel]

I need to know is this the taking the lanthorn idea or with the drow army being defeated by Jon's army and all drow bodies in the Suldensellar? I am for the first, for with the later there is a need to find a artist willing to put all the bodies there, unless I make them 'drop' dead on entering the city.

[NiGHTMARE]

Why does the avatar of Rillfane have to appear at all in the evil path? There are many possible alternatives. The avatar of Kiaransalee or Selvetarm (Lloth's two demipower servants), perhaps?

[Hendryk]

Why does the avatar of Rillfane have to appear at all in the evil path? There are many possible alternatives.  The avatar of Kiaransalee or Selvetarm (Lloth's two demipower servants), perhaps?

For metagame reasons, if you want your body to survive the hell experience, the best bet is to have the surface elves back in charge of them. The drow would destroy your bodies the instant you and Irenicus both died at the ToL. And the forest spirits summoned by Rillifane would be needed to drive off the drow and let the surface elves back.

Rather than dredge up some reason for the drow not destroying your body, the better choice might be to have your bodies descend to hell with you. Your equipment does, so why not your corpse? Then when Irenicus is defeated, you gather them up, get ejected back to the ToL, get yourself together and have to fight your way out of Sul past hostile drow occupiers. And the logical culmination of such a victory for Lolth would be for her to come and poison the ToL herself. Again, in metagame terms, that'd mean new areas for a dead ToL and a ruined but still recognizable Sul above it. Doable but a lot of work. All the additional modification wouldn't have a matching payoff in an Evil gaming experience, IMO, unless there's a really good artist to modify the areas. Having to end SoA by fighting treacherous former allies, including maybe her demipower servants or an avatar of Herself, through a dead ToL and a ruined Sul would be pretty cool though.

Ingame, the temple is still Rillfane's, based on the fact that his avatar appears there. The three artifacts that must be sacrificed there are sacred to the Seldarine, not to Lolth. Having Lolth's servants appear anywhere in Sul to hijack them would be a grave affront. Having them do so in Rillifane's own temple would be tantamount to a god-vs-god confrontation that dieties tend to avoid on the PMP, at least. Plus, the avatar is almost helpless in the face of Irenicus' ritual. He can't stop Jon; all he can do is open the way to him for the PC. It set a rather odd tone, to my taste anyway, if Lolth's servants, playing away, were able to do even that much. Again, it's not impossible, just a matter of taste mostly on what sort of reminder you want to give the PC. Myself, I think the message that Good entities such as Rillifane are still around and still have power would be the better choice.

[Deathsangel]

I personally think with a poisoned ToL by Lolth all areas need to be modified, for doesn't the ToL support life on Toril itself? Not just the elves. Anyway I'll go with the end of vanilla BG2 for it is less work, no conflicts with the movie, still working somewhat with the Drow, I have an image for the nice Drow lady 'helping' you . Nice evil RP possibility with a real evil betrayal

[Torn]

As long as we don't go overboard on the betrayals. They're the most common thing to think of for evil-doers, but too many of them and it'll get *really* dull.

[NiGHTMARE]

I personally think with a poisoned ToL by Lolth all areas need to be modified, for doesn't the ToL support life on Toril itself?

No, the Suldanessellar Tree of Life doesn't even exist in pnp. It sounds like you're thinking of the World Tree from Warcraft, or something .

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 07 June 2005 - 04:57 PM.

[Deathsangel]

I personally think with a poisoned ToL by Lolth all areas need to be modified, for doesn't the ToL support life on Toril itself?

No, the Suldanessellar Tree of Life doesn't even exist in pnp. It sounds like you're thinking of the World Tree from Warcraft, or something .

More like the indian legends of the Tree of Life, of which I assume they stole the idea.

@Torn. As always a valid point. Of course we won't do it always. I know of only two (three counting Ian being betrayed) places at the moment (yep another one, but I ain't gonna tell) and I reckon that is enough.

[Hendryk]

@Torn. As always a valid point. Of course we won't do it always. I know of only two (three counting Ian being betrayed) places at the moment (yep another one, but I ain't gonna tell) and I reckon that is enough.

Heh. Just please don't forget to give the PC a chance or two to betray someone else. Being betrayed comes with the Evil territory. Betraying someone who trusts you is why a player goes the Evil route in the first place.

[Torn]

Absolutely, and that's just fun. I'm just saying, the whole 'evil turns in upon itself' thing is a tad overdone . But betraying good-aligned people and owning them is always a good thing.