38 replies to this topic

[Sir Kalthorine]

Just a random "place your thoughts here" thread really - of the various mods you might have tried, what elements have made you cheer, smile and go "wow!"... and which aspects have had you tearing your hair out, groaning or considering throwing your monitor out of the window.

Although I am writing an NPC mod, please don't feel beholden to only comment about NPC mods... you have a free rein here so rant and/or praise away!

The only rules that apply here are:

• Even if you are ranting and complaining about something, try to keep it:
  • non-personal
    
  • clean
    
  • free of snide or hurtful remarks
  I want to hear people's opinions... I don't want to be blamed for instigating a flame war! Please bear this in mind!
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• This is about elements, styles, and ideas that you like or dislike. Bashing specific mods or mod writers will result in posts being deleted without reason or warning. So, for example, saying "I played a mod once where the spelling was so atrocious I found myself looking for the next error rather than reading the dialogue!" is fine. Saying things like "Sir Bostlethwistle doesn't know his dick from his dictionary" or "Lady Volestrangler's 'Jerky Judith' mod contains writing so bad I don't know why she bothered" most certainly will not be tolerated.
  .
  
• If there really is a Sir Bostlethwistle or a Lady Volestrangler out there, or anyone has written an NPC mod called 'Jerky Judith', for GOODNESS sakes someone PM me and let me know!
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• The rule above does not need to apply where you are praising a specific mod or modder, however. I am sure people won't mind some free good press in that regard, and I for one would like to hear of good NPC mods
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• Try where possible to keep your comments confined to your own experiences of mods rather than commenting about other people's comments. Er... I think that makes sense
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• Straying off topic into interesting discussions will be savagely... um... ignored
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• As forum moderator I reserve the right to summarily censor and/or edity anything that doesn't abide by the house rules listed here. You have been warned!

It will be nice to read some random thoughts about elements people like to see in mods (whether NPC mods or not), and what their pet hates are. I am not guaranteeing the responses will necessarily be reflected in the Chrysta mod, but as far as I am concerned you can't have too many user opinions...

Edited by Sir Kalthorine, 31 March 2005 - 07:38 AM.

[Cantrip]

Good custom music and soundsets are always welcome! :thumb:
The best mod music I've heard so far is the Imoen Romance one...

Cheesy NPCs are a big no-no! :glare:
Rogue ReBalancing by aVENGER contains good example of how a fight can be hard, without cheating...

Edited by Cantrip, 31 March 2005 - 08:02 AM.

[Dragon Lord]

I think music is important, as is good voicing. Yasraena had the best voice, and Immy's romance had the best music.

Oh, and the portrait is VERY IMPORTANT. I looked FOREVER to find one for Drake.

[Cantrip]

I second the portrait note, its extremly important!
The "feel" of the mod is also very important, it has to feel like it is a natural part of the game.
Party interaction (even for non-playable NPCs) is also important, the UB mod is one of the best in this...

[Postosuchus]

Personally, I dislike mods with badly written NPC banters or bad NPC characterizations; If there is core material with the PC that is good enough I can overlook this, otherwise the mod gets uninstalled.

[the bigg]

The soundset should be incorporated separately for two reasons:
1) download size.
2) it sounds rubbish when Minsc talks in Italian and *** talks in english, and makes you wish to strangle the author for forcing you to download on a 56k all those Mb's of voicelines you're never going to witness because your character is the wrong sex.

[Erephine]

From most important to least important:

1 - Quality of dialogue

Important factors (in no particular order):
NPC characterization
Stat-depending choices for CHARNAME (offering a wide range of reactions)
Spelling and Grammar
Style (Spoken words/action needs to be pointed out properly)
Ambience/interactively triggered talks (for example, triggered by area, time, weather, etc)
Creativity and Variety in talks
Convincing voicing (at least for the important lines)

2 - Quantity of dialogue

Important factors (in no particular order):
Quest interaction (especially on more important quests)
NPC/Party interaction
Extensive talks with CHARNAME, both from the NPC's initiative and "force talked"
Useful distribution throughout the game (steady dialogue rather than everything at once and then nothing for weeks; of course some dialogue will be concentrated where it's useful to do so)
Ability to individually choose the amount of dialogue (can be done by force talks, and the option to "end" a conversation)

3 - Quests and balancing

Important factors (in no particular order):
No "uber" quests, generally smaller quests are much more fun
No overpowered/other "great" new items
Rewards/loot should be kept to a minimum
Use quests for additional interaction rather than just random slaughter
Quests should fit into the storyline and make sense
Carefully triggering the quest to make sure the player "can" do it at that moment
The NPC shouldn't be a powerful character

4 - Quality of additional content

Important factors (in no particular order, if applicable):
Voicing (see above)
Item graphics/Description/paperdoll images need to be eye friendly
Portrait should be acceptable (although that's the smallest issue, as it can simply be switched)
Quality of custom music (which should fit the game)

5 - Availability

Generally a character is more fun if you can get them early on, and have them stay with you for the most part of the game.

And if applicable:

Romance

Important factors (in no particular order):
Slow, subtle start of romance
There should be quite a lot of talks before the actual romance kicks in
Loads and loads of interaction once on romance path (Getting to know each other, and just talking)
CHARNAME initiated flirts and talks, but also vice versa.
The ability for the romance to fail out of lack of interest or messing up.

[Slumlord]

Lightspeed got most of them but another one is when bantering with the oringinal NPCs know the NPCs character Chrysta is bantering with so you don't feel like "Now, blah blah would never say that."

Also, the dramatic pause effect in dialogs. The '...' Yes, the dots. In all the dialogs for the original game it's "... " three dots and a space. Sometimes that's over looked and modded NPC dialogs don't seem to fit. You'll see:

"Uh.......hello...."

When it really would be:

"Uh... hello... "

Now, if that isn't being nit-picky then I don't know what is.

[Andyr]

I do not think romances are important for an NPC mod.

[SimDing0]

I've always been of the opinion that it shouldn't be possible to recognise mod content as being mod content. I find a good general principle to be "if you're doing something Bioware could have considered worthy of being in the game without compromising consistency, you're on the right track". Pretty loose to interpret, eh?

[Sillara]

There are many things that I like and dislike about NPC mods, but perhaps the biggest is the spelling/grammar issue. I have uninstalled mods due to this issue alone.

If there is a romance, I do like to have lots of options regarding the pace at which it progresses. :^^: I myself do not always *want* a slow romance. (It depends upon my Charname.) Sometimes my Charnames want to say, "Anomen, hurry up already!" Or some such.

I like copious amounts of banter. I am more forgiving on characterization of the Biowares because I know that different modders' views--differ. I like Jaheira, and, though she is strong-willed, I do not consider her to be the bossy pain that some do. If she is written as a bossy pain, I can accept it. I know that she can be viewed so, though I do not.

I guess that is all for now. More later as I think of it! :^^:

Sillara

[Erephine]

I do not think romances are important for an NPC mod.

Nor do I (Quote: "And if applicable:"). Just IF a romance is to be included, it needs to be done properly.

I've always been of the opinion that it shouldn't be possible to recognise mod content as being mod content.

I'll have to disagree with that; while it's good to keep continuity and style similar, the original content is lacking at best.

[AnnabelleRose]

I think Sim, Lightspeed, Postosuchus, and Silara covered most of what I would add on my own. Great posts, cats!

I would like to add that I am not a big fan of music in mods. I seem to have diffrent tastes then quite a few of the modders when it comes to music. Music also makes the download size ALOT bigger. Not to mention many of the other mods add music, so if you are playing some of the bigger ones, it can create compatability issues. I like how Lord M made two versions of the Imoen Romance. One with music, one without music. I understand that many modders feel it adds to the mood and feel of the mod. My issue is that the clips are so short, the ones I like tend to end too fast and leave me wanting to hear more of it, which is somewhat annoying to me.

I also wanted to expand on NPCs being available early in the game. I know there are some great ones that you are unable to pick up till chapter three or so, but I would not know. I have them downloaded, but rushing though the game to get to them does not work for me. Seems silly that by the time you learn where Johnny is with your soul that you would take your sweet time and go do other quests. Maybe with the endless SoA patch (I forget which mod offers this) that might work, but otherwise? Not so much as far as I am concerned.

Another thing I hate is that modded NPCs seem to always win arguements with the Bioware NPCs. I will not say which mod I am speaking about here, since it is under development and I am no longer part of the writing team (since I did not have time), but the head of the project was requesting banters where Anomen "pwned" this NPC. This is something I love! I hate the "Anomen is bad and everyone has to hate him" trend in modding. I'll admit that he is a tool most of the time, but come on! There are some people who would like him. Besides, once he obtains knight, he is not that bad.

I do disagree with Andyr about romances. I really like them. I think it was Domi (sorry, too lazy to look up your new name, no offense meant) who said that she wanted to see all the Bioware NPCs romanceable. Just about anyone can be swooned in the right circumstance with patience etc... I don't mind romanceable NPCs that have high standards (race, stats, class, alignment, etc...), as that makes sense. I guess I just like to have the option. Sometimes ones like that are good to make you play things you normally do not play.

I also agree with Cantrip about battles. I hate cheese. I do enjoy a good challenging fight, but when your enemies are clearly cheating and doing things normally impossible in the game it gets silly. Like monsters with abilities they normally should not have. I can handle one or two being "special" but when it becomes the norm, just does not fit for me. If you are going to make uber gibberlings (I use them because as far as I know no one uses them), at least label them "Greater" or "Improved". Don't change all of them in the game.

I also agree with Dragon Lord's/Cantrip's comments about portraits. NPC and non-joinable NPCs.

[Erephine]

Oh, yes. Thanks for reminding me:

No ridiculous/tough battles. And if you want to do them, keep it optional. While they can be "mastered", it's annoying to reload (heck, even reloading once is annoying). IMHO the perfect mod can be played on first try without getting stuck.

[Togashi Renshi]

Personally, I think that the main factors are the following:

-Dialogue grammar that looks like it was written by someone older than three.
-Dialogue that isn't totally "unbelievable" (i.e., more than 4 or 5 ...'s in one dialogue block. I hate those.)
-Balanced items and stats
-(if there is one) a romance that's [insert Sillara's comments on romance content here]
-(again, if there is one) quest(s) that are not uber-long or uber-hard (or easy, for that matter). Balanced.

ok, that's my 2 cents tossed into the Magical Well of Chrysta-Making.

Togashi

[nethrin]

I do not think romances are important for an NPC mod.

agreed. imo, good writing is the most important thing. one can be a great coder, but if one's story sucks, one's mod sucks.

Edited by nethrin, 31 March 2005 - 10:44 PM.

[Sir Kalthorine]

Great input so far, guys n gals... and encouraging too, considering that I agree with pretty damn near everything that has been said so far.

Keep 'em coming :thumb:

Edited by Sir Kalthorine, 01 April 2005 - 12:19 AM.

[Zyraen]

The following are some comments that came up when we were working on a certain project of mine (not Beyond the Law). I have not written any dialogue for that Mod so far, but I think the following would be part of what makes or breaks a Mod's dialogue/banter sections.

=============

One issue that I have with many many NPCs is the absence of conflicts with Bioware NPCs, and usually alarm bells start going off the moment I see an NPC who
- manages to out-talk Edwin easily
- manages to make Anomen admit that he/she fights much better than him
- manages to out-insult Viconia
- manages to make Jaheira agree to their every word
- manages to make Keldorn put down his austere side and play with them
- manages to get Aerie from crying to grinning in a few sentences
- manages to make everyone else look stupid
- manages to get along with everyone else
- manages to make everyone else really like the person
- manages to immediately cause many of the members of the opposite gender in the game to fall head-over-heels in love with the person
- manages to fight better than everyone else in the game, and other NPCs give fanservice in the banters
- manages to cast spells better than everyone else in the game, and other NPCs give fanservice in the banters
- (and this last one I hate the most) is described to be so incredibly lovely and smart he/she makes you immediately become like a nervous idiot in front of him/her and make all the other romance alternatives look like ugly stupid pigs/sows queueing up (oh yes I actually came across one that fell into this category... major ouchies. The moment her first banter hit me I immediately expelled her from my party)

Edited by Zyraen, 01 April 2005 - 12:53 AM.

[SimDing0]

I'll have to disagree with that; while it's good to keep continuity and style similar, the original content is lacking at best.

Flirt Packs are the best example here. They extend, and differ from, original content, but in a way that is internally consistent. On the other hand, if once NPC has flirts while none of the others do, then that's sloppy. (It's an illustration of the author's commitment to quality that the improvements Kelsey brought over the Bioware romances were then brought back to the original characters in the Flirt Packs.)

[Postosuchus]

The following are some comments that came up when we were working on a certain project of mine (not Beyond the Law). I have not written any dialogue for that Mod so far, but I think the following would be part of what makes or breaks a Mod's dialogue/banter sections.

=============

One issue that I have with many many NPCs is the absence of conflicts with Bioware NPCs, and usually alarm bells start going off the moment I see an NPC who
- manages to out-talk Edwin easily
- manages to make Anomen admit that he/she fights much better than him
- manages to out-insult Viconia
- manages to make Jaheira agree to their every word
- manages to make Keldorn put down his austere side and play with them
- manages to get Aerie from crying to grinning in a few sentences
- manages to make everyone else look stupid
- manages to get along with everyone else
- manages to make everyone else really like the person
- manages to immediately cause many of the members of the opposite gender in the game to fall head-over-heels in love with the person
- manages to fight better than everyone else in the game, and other NPCs give fanservice in the banters
- manages to cast spells better than everyone else in the game, and other NPCs give fanservice in the banters
- (and this last one I hate the most) is described to be so incredibly lovely and smart he/she makes you immediately become like a nervous idiot in front of him/her and make all the other romance alternatives look like ugly stupid pigs/sows queueing up (oh yes I actually came across one that fell into this category... major ouchies. The moment her first banter hit me I immediately expelled her from my party)

You forgot "manages to intimidate Korgan"

that's worse than the others, in my opinion.

Edited by Postosuchus, 01 April 2005 - 05:47 AM.