15 replies to this topic

[dreicunan]

As this is my first post on these forums (anywhere on there forums, not just in the Chloe section), let me just say hello to everyone who happens along and reads this. A special hello to Lucy and the rest of the Chloe Romance project team.

I've downloaded the latest version of the mod and been playing around with it, and as time has passed I just can't get over the feeling that Chloe's weapon set doesn't really reflect the spirit of the character. I don't mean to say that her personality just wouldn't dual wield, but the weapons she has just don't seem right.

One issue I had right off the bat was her short sword. She got it as a gift from Lathander? A kensai does seek to perfect their relationship with a weapon; a kensai also needs to be very athletic. Athleticism and self-perfection are two things which do fall under Lathander's porfolio, granted, but I just don't see her as being that close to Lathander in the first place. Nuetral Nuetral does fall within the range of his worshipers, but you go out of your way as you were describing her to point out that no one should confuse her with being altruistic. Altruism is one of the things Lathander's church encourages. Furthermore, even if at one time she had performed Lathander a service, why would he reward her with a short-sword? His favored weapon is a mace, and even discounting that a sun-blade would have made more sense as a gift. A nice amulet the protects her from heat based damage and/or blindness would have made more sense. Akadi and Lathander are neither allies nor enemies, so there is no connection there either. I really tried to find a justification for the weapon that I could buy, but I just can't see one that holds water.

Now a much bigger problem I have with her weapon set-up is that she is wielding a scimitar and a short sword. She is a Kensai. A kensai devotes themselves to the mastery of just one weapon. In fact, the original kensai class was forbidden to wield magic versions of their chosen weapon, because that was considered cheating. Furthermore, they were limited to just their chosen variety of weapon. They only received half-experience if they used a different weapon to defeat someone. So the idea of a Kensai running around dual-wielding different weapons just doesn't seem right.

As I looked over the pictures offered up for her, both the original and the alternates, I also noticed a theme: when pictured with a weapon, she has one sword. The exact variety varies from picture to picture, but it is just one sword that is clearly visible. Now if you look very closely at the original picture for here, it appears that she has a hilt in her right hand, but still I think that the single blade fits a kensai concept better. A side note is the neither of her weapons match the blade in her picture.

The caveat to all this is that she isn't a pure kensai. She is a Yr'kai Kensai. They might prefer weapons that can be dual-wielded, but regardless I think that she should still be dual-wielding the same weapon. In a Forgotten realms game, I would strongly suggest NOT having her use two scimitars, as a certain dark elf ranger pretty much has that copy-righted. In fact, the more I look at that sword from the original picture for her, the more I think that she should be specialized in 2-handed weapons. Granted that would probably mean raising her strength up to 16 to make it realistic for her to wield a 2-handed sword the way she would, but I think that would be reasonable, especially given how buff her arms look in that picture. A claymore would seem to be right up her ally. Actually, if you think I have a point but like those curvy scimitars, you might consider a chinese war sword. It was wielded two-handed and it's size would seem to mesh with Chloe quite well. In case you are unfamiliar with the weapon, here is a link:
http://www.swords-n-...m/cs-88cws.html

One other thing I would point out is that Chloe's original picture show's her wearing bracers. Now, I think this would be a good opportunity to give her a piece of unique equipment that can't be removed. It would also help to distinguish her from your run of the mill Kensai a bit more. What these special bracers should do I don't know, but I think that having her wield just the one special weapon (that auto upgrades as time goes on, I like that idea) and then giving her the bracer would be a fair trade for her.

Now, lest I be called a negative nelly, let me also say that I am otherwise rather impressed with the mod. Chloe's commentary on events is refreshing, and she does it a great deal, which I find quite impressive. It is clear that a great deal of attention was paid to the role playing aspect of the character.

[Lucythebeast]

As this is my first post on these forums (anywhere on there forums, not just in the Chloe section), let me just say hello to everyone who happens along and reads this. A special hello to Lucy and the rest of the Chloe Romance project team.

I've downloaded the latest version of the mod and been playing around with it, and as time has passed I just can't get over the feeling that Chloe's weapon set doesn't really reflect the spirit of the character. I don't mean to say that her personality just wouldn't dual wield, but the weapons she has just don't seem right.

One issue I had right off the bat was her short sword. She got it as a gift from Lathander? A kensai does seek to perfect their relationship with a weapon; a kensai also needs to be very athletic. Athleticism and self-perfection are two things which do fall under Lathander's porfolio, granted, but I just don't see her as being that close to Lathander in the first place. Nuetral Nuetral does fall within the range of his worshipers, but you go out of your way as you were describing her to point out that no one should confuse her with being altruistic. Altruism is one of the things Lathander's church encourages. Furthermore, even if at one time she had performed Lathander a service, why would he reward her with a short-sword? His favored weapon is a mace, and even discounting that a sun-blade would have made more sense as a gift. A nice amulet the protects her from heat based damage and/or blindness would have made more sense. Akadi and Lathander are neither allies nor enemies, so there is no connection there either. I really tried to find a justification for the weapon that I could buy, but I just can't see one that holds water.

Now a much bigger problem I have with her weapon set-up is that she is wielding a scimitar and a short sword. She is a Kensai. A kensai devotes themselves to the mastery of just one weapon. In fact, the original kensai class was forbidden to wield magic versions of their chosen weapon, because that was considered cheating. Furthermore, they were limited to just their chosen variety of weapon. They only received half-experience if they used a different weapon to defeat someone. So the idea of a Kensai running around dual-wielding different weapons just doesn't seem right.

As I looked over the pictures offered up for her, both the original and the alternates, I also noticed a theme: when pictured with a weapon, she has one sword. The exact variety varies from picture to picture, but it is just one sword that is clearly visible. Now if you look very closely at the original picture for here, it appears that she has a hilt in her right hand, but still I think that the single blade fits a kensai concept better. A side note is the neither of her weapons match the blade in her picture.

The caveat to all this is that she isn't a pure kensai. She is a Yr'kai Kensai. They might prefer weapons that can be dual-wielded, but regardless I think that she should still be dual-wielding the same weapon. In a Forgotten realms game, I would strongly suggest NOT having her use two scimitars, as a certain dark elf ranger pretty much has that copy-righted. In fact, the more I look at that sword from the original picture for her, the more I think that she should be specialized in 2-handed weapons. Granted that would probably mean raising her strength up to 16 to make it realistic for her to wield a 2-handed sword the way she would, but I think that would be reasonable, especially given how buff her arms look in that picture. A claymore would seem to be right up her ally. Actually, if you think I have a point but like those curvy scimitars, you might consider a chinese war sword. It was wielded two-handed and it's size would seem to mesh with Chloe quite well. In case you are unfamiliar with the weapon, here is a link:
http://www.swords-n-...m/cs-88cws.html

One other thing I would point out is that Chloe's original picture show's her wearing bracers. Now, I think this would be a good opportunity to give her a piece of unique equipment that can't be removed. It would also help to distinguish her from your run of the mill Kensai a bit more. What these special bracers should do I don't know, but I think that having her wield just the one special weapon (that auto upgrades as time goes on, I like that idea) and then giving her the bracer would be a fair trade for her.

Now, lest I be called a negative nelly, let me also say that I am otherwise rather impressed with the mod. Chloe's commentary on events is refreshing, and she does it a great deal, which I find quite impressive. It is clear that a great deal of attention was paid to the role playing aspect of the character.

The concept of the Yr'kai kensai is based more on the Renshai tribe from the Mickey Zucker Reichert novels than it is on the D&D kensai class. I could have come up with a fancy name for her class, but the overall concept fit more closely with that of the kensai than it does any other D&D class so that's what I went with. In these novels, if you're unfamiliar with them (which are based on Norse mythology), the Renshai is a master of ALL swords, and is considered to be deadly in any room where a sword is present (because of their great skill in disarming an opponent and nearly instantaneously wielding that weapon.) However, Baldur's Gate's game system is based on 2nd edition D&D rules, and is therefore limiting the weapon choices. Were Chloe to be proficient in all swords, she'd be using far more proficiency slots than the system allows, not to mention she should technically have a higher rating than proficient. So I had to limit it to one or two weapon choices.

In the Renshai novels, dual wielding weapons well is a rare and highly respected skill, and is ultimately what any of these warrior people aspire to. Chloe, being based on these people, is no different. She sees wielding two weapons simultaneously as the ultimate show of her skill, and the ultimate means of offense. And knowing her character as intimately as I do (since I created her), I know what weapons she would prefer. There is no better slashing weapon than a scimitar that is widely available to the people of the Forgotten Realms world. One could argue that certain exotic weapons would be better, but being forced to choose one or two weapons, Chloe would not pick an exotic weapon, because if she ever lost HER weapon or it was temporarily forced from her, she would want a weapon that she could get her hands on easily. So, the scimitar. But the scimitar doesn't make a very good piercing weapon, and sometimes you just have to use a piercing attack. I could have gone with a long sword or, even better, a rapier, but it's far easier and far more effective for your off-hand weapon to be smaller and lighter than your main-hand weapon. So this would basically limit the choices to a short sword or a dagger. Of those choices, Chloe would most definitely choose a short sword. Now I could have made it possibly a long sword and a short sword, but scimitars make far better slashing weapons than a long sword, and Chloe is going for maximum effect. So that is why I decided to go with a scimitar and a short sword.

The Lathandar and Akadi connection was also inspired by the Renshai novels, because their patron deities are Sif and Modi. The idea of having two patron deities, dissimilar in many ways but sharing some kind of connection, at least in the eyes of the worshipper, was intriguing. So I used it. I think it adds something both to the character and to the Yr'kai people themselves.

As for the "magic weapon" thing, if you've gotten far enough in the game to see the weapons upgraded, you'll plainly see Chloe's feelings on the matter.

Oh, and bracers, by the way, are considered armor, and a Yr'kai would never use them. The pictures weren't perfect, but they were passable. A character should never be restricted by the limited choices of pictures available.

[dreicunan]

Hi Lucy.
First off thanks for all the input on her class and how she got formed up. I'm familiar with the author, but not with the Renshai series. As for a name, Yr'kai Blade or even just a Yr'kai might have been two other viable options (although, since the voice acting is already done, it would probably be too late to change the name of the class). It was the Kensai aspect of the name that gave me quite a bit of pause. The actual source material clears that up. Same with the dual-wielding thing. Oh, and jsut to be clear, I didn't mean to "limit" the character by the picture. I just looked at it as a source of inspiration for one example of how to address somehting that at the time I saw as off (which is no longer the case completely).

That her tribe might be devoted to Lathander I could buy. It is Lathander giving her a weapon as a gift that gives me pause. I already mentioned some of them. For example, Lathander encourages idealistic altruism, an agressive righting of wrongs. Outside of the tent in Athkala where you find Aerie, she is recommending you to not get involved. That doesn't mesh with Lathander at all. Regardless of what she might think of him, unless she underwent a RADICAL personality change before this story began but after she received the gift, I just don't see Lathander giving her a gift. I can see how this connection would add "something", but what is this "thing" that it adds?

There are also some story considerations to take in here. Being a daughter of Akadi, she is the daughter of a Greater Power. She also was given a weapon that is a gift from a greater power, a might potent one that will get better with time. Now on top of that she has meritted the attention of Lathander, another Greater Power, to the point of getting a sword form him, too. Meanwhile, the main character of the entire game is just a lowly Bhaalspawn, merely the son of an Intermediate Deity. He hasn't even been given a gift by ONE deity. Chloe is, by all rights, more powerful than the main character (that dex shows this pretty well), and when you throw in her meriting the attention not just of her mother but of Lathander, who apparently likes her so much that he is willing to give her a gift even though she is nowhere close to his ideals, how do you justify keeping the focus of the story on MAINCHAR? Chloe should be the focus now, given the set-up. If Irenicus thought that a Bhaalspawn was a tempting treat, I have to imagine that he would move mountains to steal Chloe's essence.

So anyways, I just think that there is a better option for who gives her the second sword. Of all the settings in D&D, the Forgotten Realms will provide you with an alternative choice of deity.

Humbly submitted for your consideration this 30th day of March in the Year 2005.

Edited by dreicunan, 30 March 2005 - 09:09 AM.

[Lucythebeast]

Just because Chloe might be better in a fight than the PC doesn't mean she should be the focus of the story. Lots of times in stories the main character is far less powerful than his or her allies, but it's still the main character's story. Chloe doesn't dominate the story, she merely adds to it, and that's why it works.

As for meriting Lathander's attention, Akadi and Lathander's relationship with the Yr'kai was something that I wasn't really able to explore in SoA. I had planned on trying to figure out a way to work in a little something when Lathander upgraded her weapons for ToB... as well as in the ending dialogue, but that didn't happen. And, all in all I think it would be unnecessary. The short version of the story is, Akadi and Lathander have/had plans for Chloe and whether those plans were going to come up, I was going to see if they would fit the time scale of the ToB game without pulling any more away from the PC than was necessary. Ultimately, I think it probably would so I was likely going to leave it as a "nobody understands the plans of the gods but them" situation. But I did plan on something... and it was related to the PC... and probably nothing more needs to be said.

But renaming her class or even finding some other deity to fill the roll in the co-conspirator... er... I mean partner for Akadi isn't feasible. I'd have to rewrite a number of dialogues, rename her Lathander series of weapons, actually I'd have to remove them and make new ones to fit the deity of choice, and I'd have to get all of Chloe's dialogue revoiced because of the dialogue changes... and it was a pain in the ass just getting what I did get recorded done. Only about 1/3 maybe 1/2 of the dialogue I wanted voiced never got done before Wayne disappeared. So I'd definitely have to find someone else to voice the mod... my last futile attempt at it was met with limited success... the lady sent me some samples, I said "that sounds great, you can record this stuff anytime and I'll listen, make suggestions if it needs to be done a bit differently, etc." then she disappeared and didn't respond to my emails so I gave up. That's happaned a lot on this mod... and further frustrations I could do without. Sorry.

[Dalis'ilhea]

also as for the PC not being as powerful, Chloe is the child of a god yes, but not a recepticle of that gods power, the PC (and the other Bhaalspawn) is/was

Edit (or a least that is what I think, correct me if I'm wrong)

Edited by Dalis'ilhea, 10 April 2005 - 01:03 AM.

[Lucythebeast]

One could also argue that the PC is as powerful as the player makes him or her. I once rerolled stats for like 3 minutes and got stats like... 18 18 17 15 14 13. Also keep in mind that a number of players can solo the entire game with, say, a sorcerer PC. A feat that I'm fairly sure Chloe couldn't pull off.

[Slayer299]

hi

I have also one thing that is bit off about Chloe - she still says that Imoen is my sister. But isn't that know in laster part of game? I don't know really, but PC still talks about childhood friend, only in dialogs with Chloe Imoen is sister. That's a little spoiler, isn't it? I know that players who install mods are advanced and already know that, but it just don't make sense.

Also Chloe is bit noisy. Not that she talks about everything, but with the same volume set she is just more loud.

--
Tersi

Tersi,
Actually it comes out in Chapter 3, when Irenicus captures you in Spellhold. I don't remember Chloe saying in any of her talks with the PC that Immy's your sister, I could be wrong and maybe Lucy "oopsed" . BTW - when did the dialogues with CHloe talking to you about your sister Imoen take place, in what chapter?

Bill Gopher

[Lucythebeast]

It wasn't an oops. Chloe meant that both Imoen and the PC were wards of Gorion, therefore they were foster siblings. They grew up together, from what I've seen of Candlekeep they were likely the only children there. Everyone else were monks, guards, or shopkeepers. Chloe was making no presumptions about biological relationships. And if you're played the romance and asked Chloe about her tribe, you'll have seen that her tribe doesn't really think or care about biological relationships and she considers everyone in her tribe to be her family.

Edited by Lucythebeast, 02 July 2005 - 09:55 PM.

[Kaeloree]

Actually.. having played the mod several times..

She was paid by Aran Linvail to go with the thieves attacking Chateau Irenicus. And she did. And pretty much all the thieves died. She went to the pocket plane of air because she felt drawn to it because of her affinity to Akadia.


How you didn't know that, I really don't know. Its rather central to her plot. :|

[Shar-Teel]

First off - i love Chloe mod, it was an absolutely good idea and nicely done too. Have to say some romantic moments i will remember with extreme fondness...outmatched maybe only by NWN: Dreamcatcher
Nevermind lazy me actually signing up to post something here on SS.

but anyways: i have probably completed the Chloe romance - i suppose we won't find a Y.S. in SoA. I have an OOC suspect in ToB though. So, my thoughts...

Disagreeing about katanas menioned several times before, i like Lucy's reasoning about Chloe studying the weapons most easily accessible...after all she's not a standard kensai. She's not a super character (madly overpowered) either - yes she deals massive damage but due to her inability to tank i am happy i have Korgan to back her up (and drive her understandably insane with his erotic fantasies - yea, if only she had shorter limbs and was hairy, ewww.. )

Her looks...oh yes i agree the original piccy despite being lovely just sooo clashes with her voice and personality. Chloe does not have to be exactly tall - but not tiny and immature for sure. But BLACK HAIR? what blasphemy! i have gone to sleep and woken up with thinking about Chloe being red-haired and NO ONE tells me otherwise Anyways i used this one, felt a bit more in place:


5 talks seems a bit lacking though. almost looks like Imoen romance is more complete than the player one. it felt in need of couple of conversations during the big gap, chapters 4 and 5.

And of course enormous thanks to her 'mother' and everyone having put effort into the mod

off to bed, xx
K

P.S. Is there at least a liiiitle chance of a ToB portion ever being completed?

[Lucythebeast]

The "voice not matching the picture" thing is kind of a... um............... petty comment. For one, only one voice actress even volunteered to take a crack at it, so it's not like I had a big casting call and could look for the ultimate perfect voice. Wynne did her best and I was not unhappy with her work. As for her picture, when I needed to find a picture, I looked at every single red-haired woman's picture I could find on the picture sites that were set up for Baldur's Gate photos. I found several possibilities, and even though the picture I chose wasn't perfect, it was close enough. On the Chloe website (which I guess is no longer around since it was on the Fwstudios webhost) I had a number of alternate pictures available. If you find one you like better, you're always welcome to use it.


As far as weapons, I've never seen them as being overpowered in the long run, considering the weapons you can get if you know where to get them... and enough people seem to agree with that so I didn't worry about it. Also, if you hate her weapons, you can always give her different ones. You can even use a program like shadowkeeper to adjust her proficiencies. For example, giving her two short swords instead of a scimitar and short sword, or give her a long sword and a short... or whatever strikes your fancy.


As for the number of lovetalks, I considered the 15 GTKU dialogues as part of the PC-Chloe romance since you have to go through all of those before you get to the lovetalks... and it was 8 lovetalks after that (2 were events so if you don't want to count those, that's your choice.) So that would be 23 dialogues between Chloe and the PC... 21 if you don't count the slaver events... and oh yes, one of the Chloe-PC lovetalks occurs mostly between Imoen and Chloe talking about the PC with a response/interruption from the PC but I felt that was rather appropriate given the nature of Imoen and the PC's relationship, that Imoen would talk to her sibling's lover... *shrugs* I could have added more lovetalks between the PC and Chloe but, in all honesty I couldn't really figure out anything else for them to talk about at that time, I was rather burnt out and it was so long between when I first conceived the romance mod and when it was finished that the creative drive wasn't as burning hot as it was in the beginning.


And finally, about whether there will be a ToB portion of the romance, I highly doubt it. The people that decided to take the task on had some disagreements and misunderstandings and that was that. I don't have the time or the ability to do it, so I don't see it ever happening. I might someday write out some dialogues and post them somewhere, as I've seen happen with one or two writers out there, and whether someone wants to code them up and put them into the game or not, that'd be their choice. Don't expect it any time soon though, or even really at all... I don't even have BG2 anymore. It was uninstalled not long after I finished testing Chloe and the game disks are probably in storage in the US. So... I dunno.

[noname]

And finally, about whether there will be a ToB portion of the romance, I highly doubt it. The people that decided to take the task on had some disagreements and misunderstandings and that was that.  I don't have the time or the ability to do it, so I don't see it ever happening.  I might someday write out some dialogues and post them somewhere, as I've seen happen with one or two writers out there, and whether someone wants to code them up and put them into the game or not, that'd be their choice.  Don't expect it any time soon though, or even really at all... I don't even have BG2 anymore. It was uninstalled not long after I finished testing Chloe and the game disks are probably in storage in the US. So... I dunno.

damn. that sucks. she was a very interesting character and I hate to see it end this way.