24 replies to this topic

[Waywocket]

Hi all, I've recently been thinking about playing Baldur's Gate again, after several years, and it seems everything has changed (hopefully for the better ) regarding mods, so I have quite a lot of questions. They're not all directly relevant to BP-BGT-DSotSC, but this seems like the best place to go if I want to try and ask it all in one go, so I hope it's not too annoying.

Firstly, neither Tutu nor BGT existed last time I played BG1, and now that it's possible to play in the BG2 engine, I don't think I can choose not to , but I was wondering if this version of DSotSC makes use of the more advanced features of the engine, or if it is more of a straight conversion. Last time I tried to play there were really quite a lot of bugs, some related to features lacking in the BG1 engine - off the top of my head I can remember problems with bags and level drain specifically (okay, the level drain wasn't really a bug per se, but a design decision based on the absence of the effect in BG1). So are these kind of things now implemented properly or is that just too much work?

More generally, from reading the forum I've seen a lot about fixing bugs, apparently including bugs from the original release, not just those introduced by porting - have I got that right? It looks like there would be a lot of duplication of effort given that the Chosen of Mystra are also fixing bugs in DSotSC...

The next part may be a slightly sore topic; apologies if so. A few times I've seen people comparing BGT to Tutu, and saying that BGT is significantly more bugged, and has poor quality background art due to heavy compression - is there any kind of objective measure of how accurate this is?

To be honest, I kind of prefer the idea of using Tutu, but it really would be nice to have another go at DSotSC, especially if some of the problems with it have been worked out, so if the problems with BGT have really been exaggerated then I guess that's my best choice, given that it doesn't look like DSotSC will be made to work with Tutu for the forseeable future...

Not DSotSC related at all, but does anyone know how many of the problems with TDD have been fixed for BP? The version of TDD I played definately wasn't the first, infamously bugged release, but still I had to go back to saved games several times when random things got corrupted, but every time that happened I got annoyed and stopped playing for a while - that's what I'm trying to avoid now mostly.

Really, I'm trying to get an idea of what level of bugginess I can expect from the different options for mods, so I can play as much as possible without getting frustrated.

If this comes across as whining that something people have made for free in their spare time isn't perfect, then I apologise. I appreciate how much work has been done by various people (well, okay, maybe I don't really know *quite* how much), and I don't intend to belittle their efforts.

I think I may have had even more, but that's all I can remember for now . Hope that made sense, and if anyone can answer any of it I'd be really grateful.

[Yacomo]

Hello Waywocket,

I'll try to give some 'short' answers:

First: This version of DSotSC requires BP-BGT, not BGT alone.

Bugginess in general: Unfortunately with a project of this magnitude there will always be bugs, no way around it. However the situation right now seems that bugs arise mostly from compatibility problems between mods rather than from within the mods itself.

Bugginess in BGT: I'll have to be careful now, I really don't want to start another BGT vs TuTu thread. If it is of any value to you, I played BGT not long ago and I encountered exactly one bug. I got help solving that one within a couple of hours on the forums and it is now fixed by S&H patch v6.

Area graphics in BGT: You'll have to look very closely to see the difference. Will no longer be an issue with BGT-WeiDU. If you want to get an idea, save an image as jpg with about 75-85 percent quality, reload it and compare it to the original.

Bugginess of DSotSC for BP-BGT: Yes, this version is far better than the original and it makes use of BG2 features, i.e. there is a real dragon in there. Again, I encountered exactly one bug that is fixed by now.

Bugginess of TDD: Yes, lots have been fixed, but as far as I know there are still some araound.

Hope this helps!

Regards,

Yacomo

P.S.: If you plan to replay BGI, I would suggest that you also install Secret of Bonehill and NTotSC, very nice mods they are!

[Garumn]

Hey Yacomo a quick question, does BP-BGT include all mods on these forums or not

[Eon Blue Apocalypse]

No, you'll have to download and install them seperately.

[Garumn]

All of them or which ones, can you tell em all the ones whivh are not included in BP-BGT

[Yacomo]

Hey Yacomo a quick question, does BP-BGT include all mods on these forums or not

Depends on your definition of 'includes' B)

If you are thinking of 'included in one download', then no, sorry. BP-BGT is the glue that sticks them together, but you'll have to download them all separately.

If you are thinking of 'integrates', then yes. A brief list of the large mods that work with a current BP-BGT install can be found in this sticky. Information on smaller mods that are also compatible is in another sticky.

[Garumn]

If Im not mistaken these are the ones


Baldur's Gate Trilogy (BGT) by Bardez (original BGT no longer supported, but supported as part of BP-BGT on this forum)
- The Darkest Day (TDD) by Potencius (Max) and Minto - Tweaked by folks at TeamBG (original TDD no longer supported, but supported as part of BP on this forum)
- Shadows over Soubar (SoS) by CBisson (support forum)
- Tortured Souls (TS) by Vlad (home page)
- Neverending Journes Part 1 (NeJ) by Vlad (home page)
- Check the Bodies (CtB) by CBisson (support forum / home page)
- Secret of Bonehill (BH) by Sir BillyBob (support forum)
- Dark Side of the Sword Coast (DSotSC) by TeamBG, ported to BP-BGT by Sir BillyBob (support forum)
- Northern Tales of the Sword Coast (NTotSC) by Aurelinus, ported to BP-BGT by Sir BillyBob (support forum)


But if understand you correctly then BGT is not a mod just some kind of engine which makes all the mods work together


EDITED does someone know a place from where all this mods can be downloaded together

Edited by Garumn, 18 March 2005 - 05:48 AM.

[Yacomo]

But if understand you correctly then BGT is not a mod just some kind of engine which makes all the mods work together

Nope, BGT is a mod that puts the BGI content into BG2. BP-BGT is the 'engine' or 'glue' that makes them all work together.

EDITED does someone know a place from where all this mods can be downloaded together

Sure:
IEGMC Asia
IEGMC Asia (mirror)
IEGMC Europe

[cujo]

does someone know a place from where all this mods can be downloaded together

Go to the European Mirror which has got a good download speed. You will have to look on the webpage what files you want to download and what you don't want to download.

For BP-BGT-NEJ you will always download the "old" versions that are not Weidu. If you need any more help about what to download or questions about the installation let us know.

[Garumn]

thanks  

[Waywocket]

Thanks for the reply - it's almost exactly what I wanted to hear, which is always nice .
I think now then I'll wait a little while for BGT-WeiDU to reach 1.0 stage, since it seems to be progressing so rapidly. Of course, that probably means I'll end up getting bored and trying out the beta, only to spend ages fiddling with bugs I was trying to avoid in the first place - ah well, at least if that happens I might be able to provide useful input. Curse my attention span!
Anyway, thanks again for the help.

EDIT: Actually, maybe I've misunderstood something here. Since BGT-WeiDU should work with BP, it should be compatible with this version of DSotSC, yes? Just to clarify, since I've had another look and got the idea that maybe it wouldn't be compatible with BP after all, just with some of the mods that BP gets to work together.

Edited by Waywocket, 18 March 2005 - 08:20 AM.

[Ascension64]

EDIT: Actually, maybe I've misunderstood something here. Since BGT-WeiDU should work with BP, it should be compatible with this version of DSotSC, yes? Just to clarify, since I've had another look and got the idea that maybe it wouldn't be compatible with BP after all, just with some of the mods that BP gets to work together.

Provided that DSotSC doesn't trample all over Imoen (with KD's latest fixes) -- which I don't think does -- it would be safe bet to say that it is compatible with BGT-WeiDU. Anyone else think of possible incompatibilities?

[Sir BillyBob]

DSotSC doesn't touch Imoen. I did have to make some of the NPCs a kit instead of standard classes (Dragon Slayer, Priest of Lathander, and whatever Bard kit I made Keira). Otherwise, it shouldn't have any problems.

[SimDing0]

The next part may be a slightly sore topic; apologies if so. A few times I've seen people comparing BGT to Tutu, and saying that BGT is significantly more bugged, and has poor quality background art due to heavy compression - is there any kind of objective measure of how accurate this is?

As one of the leading advocates of Tutu over BGT, I feel compelled to say a few words here.

First off, I suspect reports of "bugginess" in BGT may actually be exaggerated given the support it receives. The key problem that I have with BGT is not so much bugs, because there's evidently ongoing support working to iron them out. It's the arbitrary design decisions which aren't likely to change that bother me. If you don't have a problem with having to play TotSC after defeating Sarevok, or with some rather forced transition writing, then BGT may not be a problem.

While I haven't played the new release of DSotSC, the issue is likely to be the same: the bugs may have been fixed, but the writing quality's still going to be somewhat questionable.

I think the generally accepted divider is that if you want a professional product with minimal changes to BG1 content, you go with Tutu, while if you want to pack as much new stuff as you can into the game and don't mind it being a little rough around the edges, you go with BGT (and DSotSC).

Edited by SimDing0, 19 March 2005 - 09:51 AM.

[Sir BillyBob]

Please define "professional product". Tutu is buggy just like BGT. Both have a great team working to fix as many bugs as possible.

BGT does require you to do the TotSC and you have to have this in order to even install the mod. Is the problem just that you don't like the quests in TotSC or that you don't feel it is necessary to be "forced" to do them? I do feel like I am being forced to solve quests I may not care about. But then, when I solo BG2, I don't like "having" to rescue someone I don't care about since it is a solo adventure.

It wouldn't be that difficult to write a little mod to modify Belt's dialog and let you transition without doing the TotSC quests.

As for DSotSC, yes it is rough. So is TDD (which some people don't like either). Again, it wouldn't be that hard for someone to write some decent dialogs for the new NPCs so they actually have a life.

The DSotSC quests are fine other than the rehash of areas and the overpowered items. However, there are plenty of overpowered item mods in BG2 as well.

BGT and Tutu have the original BG1 content. I don't see these "beautiful graphics" someone keeps harping about in Tutu, it looks like the BG1 tileset to me. Guess what, BGT uses the same tiles. Candlekeep looks the same in both games, Baldur's Gate looks the same to me. So what is the issue?

As for the transition between games, you got to move to Amn somehow. Does it really matter how it is done? In BG2, you know you were ambushed, captured, tortured, and now locked in a cage. How many other transition mods need to be made to do the same damn thing?

As someone who has played both games and writes mods for both, the difference between the two is disk space, installation method, and the fact that you and your built up NPCs can carry over to the other game. Three differences. That is it.

[Ascension64]

BGT does require you to do the TotSC and you have to have this in order to even install the mod.  Is the problem just that you don't like the quests in TotSC or that you don't feel it is necessary to be "forced" to do them?  I do feel like I am being forced to solve quests I may not care about.  But then, when I solo BG2, I don't like "having" to rescue someone I don't care about since it is a solo adventure.

It wouldn't be that difficult to write a little mod to modify Belt's dialog and let you transition without doing the TotSC quests.

Actually, Bardez did implement some files that allowed you to not finish TotSC before transitioning to BG2. Take this as one thing I will 'finish' implementing over the later releases of BGT-WeiDU.

BGT and Tutu have the original BG1 content.  I don't see these "beautiful graphics" someone keeps harping about in Tutu, it looks like the BG1 tileset to me.  Guess what, BGT uses the same tiles.  Candlekeep looks the same in both games, Baldur's Gate looks the same to me.  So what is the issue?

I believe the 'issue' is that Tutu undergoes a CLEANER execution of BG1 conversion. As it stands, having 99.99% of BG1 files changed to _FILENAME.EXT (with the extra underscore) simplifies a hell of a lot of time in terms of compatibility as well as bug-fixing because you don't have to worry AS MUCH about other mods intruding on the same files and ruining them and theoretically looking for a bug would be easier because you already have paritioned the BG1 files away from the BG2 files. Better graphics? No idea given the work of KD, but I will tell you now that bug-fixing BGT-WeiDU is likely more tedious than Tutu because of how much overlap is present (dialog.tlk being one of the major ones here).

As for the transition between games, you got to move to Amn somehow.  Does it really matter how it is done?  In BG2, you know you were ambushed, captured, tortured, and now locked in a cage.  How many other transition mods need to be made to do the same damn thing?

I'd love someone to make a professional MOVIE which does the transition instead of the lame cutscene, because that would be the most ideal thing. However, if anyone is actually willing to do it, the content of the movie will be a topic of great discussion.

[SimDing0]

Please define "professional product".  Tutu is buggy just like BGT.  Both have a great team working to fix as many bugs as possible.

"Something you wouldn't know was a mod". BGT's transition is not up to Bioware's standard of material. If there were such rough edges on Tutu, I would endeavour to fix them. BGT is off to a pretty bad start by including jokes about modding tools in the startup text.
If you'd like to discuss the places where "Tutu is buggy just like BGT", please do, and I'll fix them.

BGT does require you to do the TotSC and you have to have this in order to even install the mod.  Is the problem just that you don't like the quests in TotSC or that you don't feel it is necessary to be "forced" to do them?  I do feel like I am being forced to solve quests I may not care about.  But then, when I solo BG2, I don't like "having" to rescue someone I don't care about since it is a solo adventure.

Repeating BG2's mistakes is not really much justification.

As for DSotSC, yes it is rough.  So is TDD (which some people don't like either).  Again, it wouldn't be that hard for someone to write some decent dialogs for the new NPCs so they actually have a life.

I wonder why somebody hasn't already done it.

Although it's worth noting that silent NPCs is way down my list of things that aren't terribly impressive about TDD. The very premise of the main plot (killing Cyric) is not a terribly compelling one.

The DSotSC quests are fine other than the rehash of areas and the overpowered items.  However, there are plenty of overpowered item mods in BG2 as well.

So because other people make overpowered items, it's okay? Right. And yes, obvious reuse of areas knocks off major points on the "professional quality" counter, since Bioware only ever reused minor insignificant areas (unlike DSotSC's repetition of major wilderness areas).

BGT and Tutu have the original BG1 content.  I don't see these "beautiful graphics" someone keeps harping about in Tutu, it looks like the BG1 tileset to me.  Guess what, BGT uses the same tiles.  Candlekeep looks the same in both games, Baldur's Gate looks the same to me.  So what is the issue?

I've never made any comment on graphics, since I imagine BGT is not sufficiently TISpacked for there to be MUCH visual difference. However, technically, BGT is using lossy compression on tilesets, while Tutu is not doing anything which would cause a loss of quality.
This will change in a future release of BGT-WeiDU.

As for the transition between games, you got to move to Amn somehow.  Does it really matter how it is done?

Yes. Poor quality material is material that isn't worth having.

As someone who has played both games and writes mods for both, the difference between the two is disk space, installation method, and the fact that you and your built up NPCs can carry over to the other game.  Three differences.  That is it.

I thank you for your insight. Perhaps my discussion of the BGT transition will inform you of what I perceive as some other subtle differences in terms of quality.

Actually, Bardez did implement some files that allowed you to not finish TotSC before transitioning to BG2.  Take this as one thing I will 'finish' implementing over the later releases of BGT-WeiDU.

I think that'd earn BGT a few bonus points, yeh.

I'd love someone to make a professional MOVIE which does the transition instead of the lame cutscene, because that would be the most ideal thing.  However, if anyone is actually willing to do it, the content of the movie will be a topic of great discussion.

What's the problem with the BG2 intro movie?

Edited by SimDing0, 19 March 2005 - 03:23 PM.

[Sir BillyBob]

So every point of the topic is how much better the mod makers were in designing Tutu over how BGT was designed. To an end-user who just wants to play a game, you have given me nothing. To someone who wants to build new mods, you have given me good reasons to look at Tutu.

Since the question was asked by someone who wants to play the mods not build them, I would say your answer was too technical and didn't really answer their question. I think we all have this problem sometimes on this forum, we lose sight of the fact that people who just want to play something are here asking us really simple questions and we can't give them a simple answer.

[SimDing0]

You don't find "you get a better quality game to play" to be a compelling reason for a player? I've specifically addressed the balance of DSotSC, the re-use of areas, and the quality of writing in BGT and DSotSC, all of which are things which will likely interest prospective players. I have also made it clear that, yes, if you don't care about these things, the improvements on the technical side of Tutu probably aren't going to be all that exciting. I'm slightly unclear on what else you want me to say.

Edited by SimDing0, 19 March 2005 - 04:58 PM.

[Sir BillyBob]

I don't when they are the same game. Again, your "better quality" is under the hood. They don't see it and they wouldn't know the difference unless you pointed out each little item and said "See that? Ain't it better than the other guy's?"

Take DSotSC and TDD out the comparison since the question is about BGT and Tutu. The only "better quality" at that point is that Tutu is easier to install and takes up less room. Those may be the only reasons a player needs but outside of that, there is nothing.