29 replies to this topic

[igi]

As to the exact meaning of my sentence - true 'editing' could refer to editing in general, but given this is an IE focused board, and in the Modders Room (no, not Gen Rev), I think it's fair to say the question was obviosuly meant "Innovation in IE editing". In which case, you're editing the book, not the language. And before someone says I'm using "innovate" in slightly the wrong context or something, I think it's pretty clear what I mean.
And I am not boasting that I've come up with these ideas (ideas are generally pretty easy to think of). I am not boasting that I've implemented these ideas. I'm not boasting. I'm not demanding. I'm wondering, asking, and thinking. And if someone feels the need to respond to this section of the post, it's obvious the thread is completely off-topic from it's intention.


Using an effect in a new way doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be poor quality.
Using an effect in a new way doesn't necessarily mean there must be no content behind it.

Imagine a quest to retreive a sword for some powerful being. The sword turns out to be a limited time travelling device. You can use the sword to time travel back and forth a few hours, a few times. Perhaps you make a bad decision somewhere, and doom the world, or get ripped off at a store. Maybe you take a quest route, and decide to go back and do it another way. Maybe the powerful being is immune to the changes in time, and hunts you down.
Assuming it's possible to make such a mod, it's perfectly possible to make it high quality. And it's innovative. And it's adding content.

So, innovation does not mean poor quality, or lack of content.
It's not about doing something for the sake of it "13 sparklies instead of 10".
It's allowing new ways for ideas to be expressed.

It's also possible to innovatively extend, expand and enchance the game-experience. Maps perhaps? Hiring a boat? Fluctuating store prices? There are more ways to add flavour to the world than having an NPC speak to you and say "We ride horses on the right hand side of our dirt tracks, in Cormyr, whereas in the Summer Isles they ride them on the left hand side".

And I'd argue that it is easier to pontificate about what mods people should be making, than it is do something. However, it *is* harder to get those people do take notice of what you're saying. Especially when other people come along and say "No. He's wrong. An NPC who can talk to beatles is perfectly fine and it is innovative. Ignore him, and continue making the same old mods. He's a nutter anyway".

I'm not saying NPC mods are terrible, I am saying other things can be done, which may be more interesting. If you agree, some co-operation would be welcome. If you dont, then just continue as you are doing.

[Andyr]

I thought Elai having a familiar was pretty innovative at the time... Though Igi wrote a tutorial on how to do it just after I told him about it in chat. Plus the mod's still not released, so.

[jcompton]

Imagine a quest to retreive a sword for some powerful being. The sword turns out to be a limited time travelling device. You can use the sword to time travel back and forth a few hours, a few times. Perhaps you make a bad decision somewhere, and doom the world, or get ripped off at a store. Maybe you take a quest route, and decide to go back and do it another way. Maybe the powerful being is immune to the changes in time, and hunts you down.
Assuming it's possible to make such a mod, it's perfectly possible to make it high quality. And it's innovative. And it's adding content.

Yes, that could be wonderful.

And I'd argue that it is easier to pontificate about what mods people should be making, than it is do something.

Yes, that was poorly phrased on my part. What I meant to say is that it is easier to actually accomplish what you're asking for if you actually DO it rather than simply nudge people on high to do it. IE modding has tended to move where published mods move it, not where pontificators move it. It was after Kelsey was released, not after Kelsey was announced and discussed, that we saw a slew of NPC mod ideas and, eventually, finished NPC mods themselves.

Whereas, for example, sitting around and saying "blah blah blah stripdowns blah blah blah total conversions blah blah blah new games!" while doing nothing about it resulted in... nothing, from anybody.

However, it *is* harder to get those people do take notice of what you're saying. Especially when other people come along and say "No. He's wrong. An NPC who can talk to beatles is perfectly fine and it is innovative. Ignore him, and continue making the same old mods. He's a nutter anyway".

Sounds like someone needs an animated smiley.



And thanks for reminding me about that Minsc/Jaheira/John/Ringo banter I'd wanted to write.

I'm not saying NPC mods are terrible, I am saying other things can be done, which may be more interesting. If you agree, some co-operation would be welcome. If you dont, then just continue as you are doing.

If I didn't make it clear, I think that all of the ideas you cited could certainly make for interesting storytelling. For my part, though, I wouldn't base a concept and a lot of work around them, because it is entirely unclear to me how they would be implemented and I'd hate to have to scrap it.

If there is, as you seem to claim, a falloff in engine-bending innovation, I think a very reasonable explanation is that most of the relatively few "IE editing techs" out there are have been very busy the past couple of years implementing mods that writers know can be implemented. What you call derivative, I would call pragmatic on the part of writers, who aren't asking for things that cannot be done, or cannot be done through "known" means. So the potential R&D cycles are going into production instead.

But I'm not sure what the "solution" is, because experience has shown that the demand for tech resources really only grows over time. And one potential solution would be some hypothetical IE editing tech who disdains the "same old" NPC creation actually going ahead and implementing his innovative ideas and saying "look what I have wrought."

Or you could just make another GBG. Your call, man.

[Ghreyfain]

This thread almost makes me want to re-create the food feature mod. Heheheh. I remember how the guy I was "working with" made two animations, then complained I wasn't doing anything--after I had the majority of it coded. But people want to hear less of me complaining, and more about released mods, be they innovative or not.

[hlidskialf]

This thread almost makes me want to re-create the food feature mod. 

I've got a sweet-assed working version of this coded Ghrey. I'll give you a look when my laptop's working again if ya' like.

[Sir Kalthorine]

Warning: Elitist snobbery ensues.

True, there are a drove of NPC mods around.  Not all that many are actually released.  I'm excluding alphas and betas made public, because I feel that's just an attention grab without doing all the work.  Anyways, of the full NPC mods that've been released, how many are actually, genuinely good?  Maybe a half dozen?  So that's not a huge selection.  More is always good, but better is... better.

Quality > Quantity > Innovation, in my opinion.  Of course, sometimes Quality and Innovation go hand in hand, so I wouldn't have anything against an innovative mod, so long as it was of a high quality, yeah?  Heheh.

Edited by Sir Kalthorine, 24 February 2005 - 03:55 AM.

[Ghreyfain]

This thread almost makes me want to re-create the food feature mod. 

I've got a sweet-assed working version of this coded Ghrey. I'll give you a look when my laptop's working again if ya' like.

Yeah, send it over whenever you get the chance.

[Eon Blue Apocalypse]

What I would like to see is less focus on npcs. Enter technical innovation: until someone hacks the exe into accepting 8 people/party I can't enjoy much of the new content. More quest mods would be great (like CtB, NEJ, SD0's QP, UB), with quality over quantity focus.

[SimDing0]

So true. I think it's been an unfortunate case that most quest mod developers try to cram in as much content as possible at the expense of quality. (Even I'm guilty to some extent.) It probably stems partly from the idea that if you make a quest mod it has to have 5 new towns and novel-length dialogue trees.

[jcompton]

What I would like to see is less focus on npcs. Enter technical innovation: until someone hacks the exe into accepting 8 people/party I can't enjoy much of the new content.

People have been saying "no more new NPCs" back when there were only 3, not 33 (latest count from the modlist, not counting BG1/Tutu NPCs or those embedded in quest mods.) And still, the audience is there.