21 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

To be honest, I share your thoughts on this matter - I never liked those Planetars available for mages. Still, they needed something, so Bio just solved this problem by assigning these tanks to their repertoire.
I also think that they should be available to clerics mostly, but on the other hand, nothing says that mages cannot summon these creatures.
And about those golems - they are created (which is a long procedure) rather than summoned.

What I still miss (and hope to add it if we ever get to take a look at the spell sections in the future) are the higher level versions of Summon Monster spells.

[the bigg]

What I still miss (and hope to add it if we ever get to take a  look at the spell sections in the future) are the higher level versions of Summon Monster spells.

TDD adds them already
Also, to add properly spells, you need either to call them in the SPWIxxx or SPPRxxx variants, otherwise sorcerors and priests won't see it (and calling a spell SPWI623 is shouting out loud for incompatibilities); if you call them tg#xxxxx, you need to use mad scripts for adding them to priests, and sorcs will miss them enterely. Finally, the space on the spells screens is so limited that a cleric has problems seeing all the spells he knows

[Andyr]

Summon Monster IV/V and some scrolls for it will be added in the next version of Unfinished Business.

EDIT: It will be a new optional component, and they'll be using slot 38 (I think 22 and above are free in the unmodded game).

Edited by Andyr, 23 February 2005 - 06:12 AM.

[Littiz]

Thx Andyr, we'll leave this to you then, no need to clash

[T.G.Maestro]

Summon Monster IV/V and some scrolls for it will be added in the next version of Unfinished Business

Thx Andyr, we'll leave this to you then, no need to clash

And what about VI-IX?

[T.G.Maestro]

Yep, if VII gets available as a 9th level spell.
What I had in mind is a system based on the one seen in NWN for example - Monster Summoning I at first level, II at second, and so on.

[Andyr]

We're not adding the higher ones.

We're only doing the V/VI because there's some code for them already in the game, so it is Unfinished Business.

[Galactygon]

A few months back, I decided to do something similar to UB ~ use Monster Summoning I to VII rather than what 3rd edition does.

My (current) website does not necessarily reflect the changes I am implementing.

-Galactygon

[T.G.Maestro]

you mean the D&D 3rd/3.5 edition version

Indeed.

I belive that Galactygon is planning to incorporate something like that into Lost Crossroads (IIRC).

Since LC and Refinements will be mostly incompatible, I guess we can as well do something similar.

If you're interested, I can post the 2nd edition Monster Summoning VI, VII, and VIII (an alternative table for Monster Summoning VII tables

Thanks, but it isn't needed that much for now - Spell Revisions are only a planned component for Refinements, and as things look these days, we won't be able to start working on it in the near future.

[Nerik]

Ok, to go back to the original subject (sort of), how about this:

Good-aligned clerics can summon Devas (perhaps upgrading to Planetars at very high levels?)

Evil-aligned clerics can summon Fiends, as follows:
Lawful Evil clerics summon Pit Fiends
Neutral Evil clerics summon Nycaloths
Chaotic Evil clerics summon Glabrezu, Mariliths, or Balors (random chance)
All of these will have the same behaviour as the current fallen deva.

Neutral clerics summon other outsiders (this is where it gets harder to implement!)
Lawful Neutral clerics summon Maruts (there are only small numbers of the Modrons at this power level - and there is AFAIK, no suitable animation for them - Maruts could use either an armoured giant animation, or the larger Iron/Adamantine golem animation)
Neutral clerics summon Argenach Rilmani (or Aurumach at very high levels), the Argenach could use a fighter animation (they're 7' tall, and thin, use swords & axes), while the Aurumach needs a taller animation (10' tall armed with a sword).
Chaotic Clerics summon a Death Slaad (a human-sized, black, humanoid toad - may need to improvise)

For Wizards, maybe we could just remove the Summon Planetar, and just give the conjourers a special summons?

Charles

[Andyr]

I believe one of the Rilmani types makes an appearance in Watcher's Keep, though I don't recall what animation it used.

Some sort of Inevitable would be a good LN choice, likewise with a Slaad for CN. But animations could be tricky...

[T.G.Maestro]

[quote]Good-aligned clerics can summon Devas (perhaps upgrading to Planetars at very high levels?)

Evil-aligned clerics can summon Fiends, as follows:
Lawful Evil clerics summon Pit Fiends
Neutral Evil clerics summon Nycaloths
Chaotic Evil clerics summon Glabrezu, Mariliths, or Balors (random chance)
All of these will have the same behaviour as the current fallen deva.[/quote]
The problem with this kind of implementation would be that it completely drops the Fallen Celestials from the game - and I see this as a real waste. While it is true that these fallen creatures are technically non-existent in pnp, they DO exist in BG2 - a game that hardly falls 100% in the "true pnp" cathegory. I say we shouldn't stick strictly to rules that would otherwise reduce the number of options available in the game. So Fallen Celestials stay in.
Also, I don't think we will be able to add creatures without proper animations - and so far we can only use this limited selection.
[quote]Neutral clerics summon other outsiders (this is where it gets harder to implement!)[/quote]
Too hard, and not worth the trouble. HLAs can only be flagged as NON EVIL or NON GOOD. This makes both cathegories available for neutral characters, but on the other hand this makes it pretty hard to assign a HLA as NEUTRAL ONLY.
[quote]Maruts could use either an armoured giant animation, or the larger Iron/Adamantine golem animation)[/quote]
As I said earlier, it is very unlikely that we will ever add a creature that lacks it's proper animation - to be honest, I hate implementations where a creature is assigned a totally alien avatar (Pit Fiends foe example).
[quote]Neutral clerics summon Argenach Rilmani (or Aurumach at very high levels)[/quote]
Slightly offtopic, but what exactly are these creatures? Could someone post some info on them?

I believe one of the Rilmani types makes an appearance in Watcher's Keep, though I don't recall what animation it used[QUOTE]
Aurumach and Ferrumach. One of them uses a standard armored fighter animation, while the other uses the "Hula-Wizard" avatar.

[Nerik]

The problem with this kind of implementation would be that it completely drops the Fallen Celestials from the game - and I see this as a real waste. While it is true that these fallen creatures are technically non-existent in pnp, they DO exist in BG2 - a game that hardly falls 100% in the "true pnp" cathegory. I say we shouldn't stick strictly to rules that would otherwise reduce the number of options available in the game. So Fallen Celestials stay in.
Also, I don't think we will be able to add creatures without proper animations - and so far we can only use this limited selection.

Ok.

(re: neutral summons)
Too hard, and not worth the trouble. HLAs can only be flagged as NON EVIL or NON GOOD. This makes both cathegories available for neutral characters, but on the other hand this makes it pretty hard to assign a HLA as NEUTRAL ONLY.

Ahh, I didn't think of that.

Slightly offtopic, but what exactly are these creatures? Could someone post some info on them?

Maruts are (in Planescape) LN servants of the gods, they resemble red-eyed giants carved from stone (hence my suggestion for animations - I figured that it would be easier than finding an animation for a high-ranking modron ).
Rilmani are the true neutral equivalent of baatezu, archons, etc. they tend to be humanoid, from 5' to 10' tall depending upon type. They have a metallic colouration that matches their names. Of course, in PnP, you shouldn't be able to summon them at all (although they can 'piggyback' on the summoning of a being of equivalent power, should they feel that they need to to preserve the balance.

I believe one of the Rilmani types makes an appearance in Watcher's Keep, though I don't recall what animation it used

Aurumach and Ferrumach. One of them uses a standard armored fighter animation, while the other uses the "Hula-Wizard" avatar.

The armoured fighter is about right for a Ferrumach, I'm not sure about the other though!

On the subject of creature animations (specifically for summoned creatures), have you found a good replacement animation for the Balor? IMHO the existing 'generic tanari' animation, although good, doesn't quite cut it for a balor, which should be wreathed in flame (or for the 'demon lord' summoned in the temple of Lolth for that matter). IIRC someone was working on porting Diablo/Diablo II animations into BG II - which should be a source of new fiendish animations (available animation slots or Galactygon's Bestial Animations mod permitting).

Charles

[T.G.Maestro]

On the subject of creature animations (specifically for summoned creatures), have you found a good replacement animation for the Balor? IMHO the existing 'generic tanari' animation, although good, doesn't quite cut it for a balor, which should be wreathed in flame

The one you are talking about is the animation of a Nabassu (an adult one). Sadly, Black Isle decided to use it for Balors too, and they haven't even tried to add a new one. Still, the situation gets even worse for Pit Fiends (as I mentioned earlier), since they got the Ravager avatar for some mysterious reason. I think Balors can be made much more resembling to their pnp looks with a few cosmethical changes on them, mostly visuals (and thats exactly what I intend to add for the Creature Revisions component, sometimes in the future).

[Andyr]

Fallen celestials/risen fiends do exist in pnp.

[T.G.Maestro]

Fallen celestials/risen fiends do exist in pnp

I know, but not exactly the way they are presented in BG2 - fallen celestials tend to become fiends for example, and defintely not maintain a Celestial look for long.

[Andyr]

If the celestials only fall/fiends only rise to Neutral, though, then they won't become the opposition member - however, yeh, it's not exactly how BG2 treats them.