78 replies to this topic

[Ghreyfain]

I'm interested, Ghreyfain, in your personal opinion of why this is the best course of action. As I said before, the only advantage I believe Tutu to have over BGT is the size, and personally I don't think that is why I should be working on BGT Tutu instead of the other one.

It's my opinion because I've looked at the two packages and compared them. What you're trying to do is much like what Tutu already does; draw directly on the BG1 resources to make the BG2 conversion. You're going about it by trying to hammer BGT into shape, and I'm suggesting you do it by adding bits on to Tutu.

I haven't seen anyone with terribly significant modding experience argue for doing it via BGT. Not to offend, or anything. We were all rookies at one point, it's just that I'm trying to steer you down an ultimately easier road.

That's very good for the community, and I appreciate it, but don't do it for me. I did say that I thought it was going to be difficult to make a transition for Tutu, but that disappeared a very long time ago (and that was an uninformed remark as well).

Good, good, I'm glad you're being a bit more open to new ideas than you might otherwise be. This argument seems to be winding down, so if you're truly are set on your course, well... whatever.

I've read about it and it doesn't do what I wanted a BG1 conversion to do, which is to allow me to play a single character, and or party, through BG1, SOA, and TOB.

As Sim has said, we're working on a proof-of-concept mod to show that, yes, it's rather easy to make a transition for Tutu. The thing is that if Ascension is interested in improving the, uh, "genre", then it seems a shame to see his talents go to waste.

That's very good for the community, and I appreciate it, but don't do it for me. I did say that I thought it was going to be difficult to make a transition for Tutu, but that disappeared a very long time ago (and that was an uninformed remark as well).

I didn't see any point in downloading it when, at the time there was a product with a greater upside available.

Right, I've seen the thread where you spend a number of hours (days?) trying to install BGT and a whole schwack of other mods. That's fine. Stick with BGT while it still does what you want that Tutu doesn't. But would you want to inflict that on future users?

The original intention of this particular BGT WEIDU was to create an updated component for BP. Hence, it's appearance in the BP-BGT forum. Unless TuTu can be reshaped to provide all of the functionality of BGT, including compatibility with BP, then it certainly isn't the correct solution for this problem.

I'm saying it is the correct solution. I'm not sure you're reading things the way I'm intending them, but considering my words to be an attack. Relax, they're not.

It just seems like you, as a player, want your kicks and don't want to wait.

Excellent. If you can make TuTu perform all the functions of BGT within the BP-BGT mod, without requiring everything else written for BP to be rewritten, I'll download it and give it a spin.

You'll give it a spin... but why are you trying to stop Ascension from trying to do just that?

[Ghreyfain]

I truly respect everyones ability to mod and there knowledge but if I am correct that one mod that we as a community started with grew and grew to many differant ones and over that time new and better ways have evolved    and I think this weidu is one step closer to all comnpatibility from BG1 through BG2.

WeiDU is a good way to make mods compatible with each other. It is not the best tool for a conversion, however. Weimer himself recognised this and made WeiMorph, which is what Tutu uses. A new and better way has evolved.

And I am betting with this discussion we move another step to getting all mods compatible with each other.

Sadly, I think you might be wrong. Perhaps BP will work on a vanilla install of BG2. Perhaps it will need a few minor tweaks to work with a Tutu install.

Because I do remember asking at one time could all the big mods merge and we could play it all together.....and no one before Horred thought it was possible because weidu wasnt advanced enough and TBg didnt have the right tools to do it....and now no argument about can it be done but now the question is what else can be added          THAT MY FRIENDS IS TRUE PROGRESS

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're comparing the current situation to the one before BP, I don't know how accurate it is. If someone asked whether it's possible to play BG1 in BG2's engine, the answer would be yes. The tools are advanced enough to make a converter that does that. The tools are advanced enough to slap minor mods on top to create a transition from BG1 to 2. BP itself is being/has been converted to WeiDU to be installed on top of that, too.

Edited by Ghreyfain, 12 February 2005 - 09:05 AM.

[russ]

Just a footnote to this discussion. I don't think all the Tutu people understand how much content there is available for BP-BGT. DSoTSC has as much content if not more than Tales of the Sword Coast with its own storyline which, again is the same quality if not better than TotSC. BP has as much content if not more than Throne of Bhaal with its own storyline which, again is the same quality if not better than ToB. And of course the most amazing thing(to me who knows very little about programming) is that these mods were created before WeiDU and DLTCEP. By playing these mods you have effectively doubled or tripled the size of your game. This is why I am hesitant to switch to Tutu because I would end up losing half to two thirds (yes, I worked out the math ) of my game. I think that is why some BGT people are very resistant especially now when the BP-BGT modders are close to making these mods even more compatible with everybody else's mods.

I would also like to say to the people supporting BGT that BGT, by itself, does not add that much content to BG1 if at all. It's only real use is that it is compatible with the mods that we use. Because the first version of it was made before the current set of modding tools was available there was a heavy handed approach in how it was made and at the time compatibility wasn't as important as it is today. (area names, for example aren't standardized). And the continuity between bg1 and bg2 could probably be solved by Tutu (remember the original bg2 game itself checked your bg1 final save for items and variables so that they could be imported to bg2).

I think both sides need to realize how much work really needs to be done. BGT is difficult to install (but not impossible) and has limited compatibility with the newer mods. Tutu currently doesn't have comaptibility with the BP, DSotSC mods (and I hope I've made it clear that this represents as much content if not more than that which is available for only Tutu) and to make these mods compatible with Tutu would (I believe) require months of modding and debugging by many people.

[jcompton]

BP has as much content if not more than Throne of Bhaal with its own storyline which, again is the same quality if not better than ToB.

So the three BP plots are slightly less awful than the awful TOB plot, you're saying?

And of course the most amazing thing(to me who knows very little about programming) is that these mods were created before WeiDU and DLTCEP.

Actually, no. All three were released after WeiDU's introduction, although apparently most of TDD's development was done before WeiDU first came out. (Please see my earlier "story of a boy" for explanation of why I really don't think this is an important detail, however.)

[Gaias]

So would it not be benificial for Ascension to finish this product and gain valueble modding experience? Would not doing this project give him the experience he needs to understand what does and does not work? If he is successful with the BGT Weidu, would he not then be in a better position to work on another project? Such as BP - Tutu? Modders are allowed to make more than one mod right?

It would seem the best course of action would be to work with the current build, finish that, and start on something different. Tutu perhaps? If Ascension were to work on a BP - Tutu, then a fair comparison could be made of what is the pro and cons of each.

Personally I would like to see Tutu be made compatible with BP more than a BGT Weidu.
Simply for the reason of all the other mods made for Tutu that I am currently unable to play with just BP - BGT. It seems to me that Tutu would be the best course of action. Just on the reason that there is so many more mods for it, than there is for BGT. The only thing I would like to see for Tutu is that wonderful map used in BGT.

Just my random thoughts....

Gaias

[SimDing0]

In any case, quit pissing and act like an adult.

Ah, I see you've decided to raise the general level of intellectual comment in the thread.
I have nothing further to say. Be useful in future.

So would it not be benificial for Ascension to finish this product and gain valueble modding experience? Would not doing this project give him the experience he needs to understand what does and does not work? If he is successful with the BGT Weidu, would he not then be in a better position to work on another project? Such as BP - Tutu? Modders are allowed to make more than one mod right? 

The sad truth is, learning how to convert non-WeiDU mods to WeiDU is effectively useless experience, because basically nobody's making non-WeiDU mods any more. It's gonna be far more helpful to learn good modding practice.

Just a footnote to this discussion. I don't think all the Tutu people understand how much content there is available for BP-BGT.

No, we do understand. But we're also aware that it can be made to work with Tutu as well. Specific content packages are a throwback to the TeamBG days, and not something we should need to worry about with modern modding tools and sensibility.
I've said again and again that a Tutu transition would still allow you to play BG2 mods. And, with some minor changes, BG1 stuff like DSotSC.

Edited by SimDing0, 12 February 2005 - 11:21 AM.

[Ghreyfain]

DSoTSC [...] better than TotSC.

Three kittens just died.

BP [...] is the same quality if not better than ToB.

So the three BP plots are slightly less awful than the awful TOB plot, you're saying?

The quality of the mods isn't really what we're talking about here. It's saving effort in the long run for anyone who wants to make a mod, whether it sucks or not.

So would it not be benificial for Ascension to finish this product and gain valueble modding experience?

His knowledge won't suddenly vanish if he stops halfway through. Believe me, the satisfaction of starting over and finishing an A+ mod is probably a lot better than how I would've felt if I'd stuck with substandard tools to create a similarly substandard mod.

Edit: Referring to Kelsey here. You know, the "That Boy Was Ghreyfain and Me" thing? I know whereof I speak.

Edited by Ghreyfain, 12 February 2005 - 11:24 AM.

[SimDing0]

Tutu currently doesn't have comaptibility with the BP, DSotSC mods (and I hope I've made it clear that this represents as much content if not more than that which is available for only Tutu) and to make these mods compatible with Tutu would (I believe) require months of modding and debugging by many people.

The debugging should be very minor, since the changes to the mods would be minimal.

[Gaias]

Tutu currently doesn't have comaptibility with the BP, DSotSC mods (and I hope I've made it clear that this represents as much content if not more than that which is available for only Tutu) and to make these mods compatible with Tutu would (I believe) require months of modding and debugging by many people.

The debugging should be very minor, since the changes to the mods would be minimal.

So could Tutu be modded in such away to do all the things that BGT can, and still be compatible with all the tutu specific mods?

[SimDing0]

Yes. Inevitably we may need to alter a few mods slightly (DSotSC, for example, will likely need to account for the Tutu transition worldmap), but in a time when BP's being majorly revised anyway, there seems like no better opportunity.

Edited by SimDing0, 12 February 2005 - 11:41 AM.

[russ]

BP has as much content if not more than Throne of Bhaal with its own storyline which, again is the same quality if not better than ToB.

So the three BP plots are slightly less awful than the awful TOB plot, you're saying?

And of course the most amazing thing(to me who knows very little about programming) is that these mods were created before WeiDU and DLTCEP.

Actually, no. All three were released after WeiDU's introduction, although apparently most of TDD's development was done before WeiDU first came out. (Please see my earlier "story of a boy" for explanation of why I really don't think this is an important detail, however.)

I laughed when I read this. Yes in the bg world ToB isn't that great, that's why I can say that BP is as good as ToB (which people actually paid money for but BP is free).

[mr2131]

The original intention of this particular BGT WEIDU was to create an updated component for BP. Hence, it's appearance in the BP-BGT forum. Unless TuTu can be reshaped to provide all of the functionality of BGT, including compatibility with BP, then it certainly isn't the correct solution for this problem.

I'm saying it is the correct solution. I'm not sure you're reading things the way I'm intending them, but considering my words to be an attack. Relax, they're not.

It just seems like you, as a player, want your kicks and don't want to wait.

Excellent. If you can make TuTu perform all the functions of BGT within the BP-BGT mod, without requiring everything else written for BP to be rewritten, I'll download it and give it a spin.

You'll give it a spin... but why are you trying to stop Ascension from trying to do just that?

If you go back and read the discussions on this topic, no one offered to give Ascenscion 64 any practical help to find a more elegent solution to the problem. Instead y'all (simdingo mostly) jumped his ass and told him he was an idiot because he wouldn't abandon his project and work on yours. If this is your idea of "collaboration" and helpful advice, it's falling well short of the mark. It's also hard to tell whether either of you ever listened to what Ascension 64 is saying or what he is trying to accomplish.

Mark

[SimDing0]

If you go back and read the discussions on this topic, no one offered to give  Ascenscion 64 any practical help to find a more elegent solution to the problem.

Interesting, but it doesn't quite explain the bit where I say "I'm on half term next week. I'll see if I can get it done then." It also doesn't account for the fact that I've got a prototype transition for Tutu installed right now. Any thoughts on those bits?

Instead y'all (simdingo mostly) jumped his ass and told him he was an idiot because he wouldn't abandon his project and work on yours. If this is your idea of "collaboration" and helpful advice, it's falling well short of the mark.

Do stop making up things you wish I'd said. I've never called anybody an idiot. On top of that, claiming that we ask him to "abandon his project" once again fails to account for a key part of proceedings: specifically the bit where I note that many parts of WeiDU-BGT could be used for a collaboration, and go on to discuss incorporating the best parts of both mods, reusing resources from WeiDU-BGT.

So yes. It's looking increasingly like you haven't been paying attention too closely to what we've said.

Edited by SimDing0, 12 February 2005 - 04:19 PM.

[Ascension64]

The sad truth is, learning how to convert non-WeiDU mods to WeiDU is effectively useless experience, because basically nobody's making non-WeiDU mods any more. It's gonna be far more helpful to learn good modding practice.

Oh, really? That's one thing I didn't know? What are people using nowadays? I don't seem to know.

No, we do understand. But we're also aware that it can be made to work with Tutu as well. Specific content packages are a throwback to the TeamBG days, and not something we should need to worry about with modern modding tools and sensibility.  I've said again and again that a Tutu transition would still allow you to play BG2 mods. And, with some minor changes, BG1 stuff like DSotSC.

Yes, yes, and yes. As I said, the only factor is time. If you think you (the generic you) are busting your brains waiting to play Tutu-DSotSC and Tutu-NTotSc and etc. etc. now, then I suggest you go on vacation. No offense meant to anyone. I meant that as a joke. Lighten up, guys.

Actually, no. All three were released after WeiDU's introduction, although apparently most of TDD's development was done before WeiDU first came out. (Please see my earlier "story of a boy" for explanation of why I really don't think this is an important detail, however.)

Well, this could go either way. It depends on the person/team whether they wanted to convert all the material they have into WeiDU. Obviously, today you can say it would have been the best because of how much more efficient WeiDU has become ever since its first release. Now that Horred has done all the hard work (poor man! ), it isn't an issue anymore.

His knowledge won't suddenly vanish if he stops halfway through. Believe me, the satisfaction of starting over and finishing an A+ mod is probably a lot better than how I would've felt if I'd stuck with substandard tools to create a similarly substandard mod.

Well, doesn't matter. The completed BGT-WeiDU has been sitting on my HD for almost two days. The only barrier is (the BIG learning experience you might say)...the uploading part. Just having problems connecting and uploading to TheWizard's site. Hopefully, that will be fixed shortly. I am going to release this just for the sake of people who do feel 'the other way', so to speak. And of course, SimDing0, Ghreyfain, CamDawg, and the others at the Pocket Plane group, if you want to take some of it to help in the creation of BGT-Tutu, then I greatly encourage it. Excuse the messiness of the .tp2 file and the .tra file if you do find it such.

If you go back and read the discussions on this topic, no one offered to give Ascenscion 64 any practical help to find a more elegent solution to the problem. Instead y'all (simdingo mostly) jumped his ass and told him he was an idiot because he wouldn't abandon his project and work on yours. If this is your idea of "collaboration" and helpful advice, it's falling well short of the mark. It's also hard to tell whether either of you ever listened to what Ascension 64 is saying or what he is trying to accomplish.

I'm sorry, Mark, but I can't say I agree with you. Although I will say that SimDing0 can be a little...'provocative' sometimes, does not mean he is necessarily calling me an idiot. And yes, they are listening to what is being typed on these forums by me. As for 'collaboration', there obviously isn't much of that yet, because we still have differing opinions on the issue, but I am making the first step by allowing PPG to use whatever they want out of the release. Finally, advice is free. It is up to the person to take it or leave it. I myself have not taken the slightest offence at the comments made so far, even though some of them I could term a little 'brash' and made me a little edgy at the poor computer screen. Cheer up mate.

Edited by Ascension64, 13 February 2005 - 12:50 AM.

[SimDing0]

I'm glad to hear you weren't offended by what I said.

And I think you might've misread my comment about experience with converting non-WeiDU mods to WeiDU, or just misunderstood what I was trying to say. My point was that there's a fairly fundamental difference between running --automate through a folder and having a big block of COMPILE commands, and actual WeiDU mod development, which generally goes nothing like that (yes, some authors still choose to build their mod and then convert it to WeiDU these days, but you lose a great many of the advantages that way, and it's generally something that's not to be encouraged). Especially given the fact that there are next to no exclusively non-WeiDU mods surviving now, it'd be more useful to gain experience with the latter.
Unless, of course, you've been developing the entire conversion with script/byte patching, APPEND and manual TRA creation, in which case I have huge respect for your tenacity.

Edited by SimDing0, 13 February 2005 - 03:09 AM.

[Ascension64]

I'm glad to hear you weren't offended by what I said.

And I think you might've misread my comment about experience with converting non-WeiDU mods to WeiDU, or just misunderstood what I was trying to say. My point was that there's a fairly fundamental difference between running --automate through a folder and having a big block of COMPILE commands, and actual WeiDU mod development, which generally goes nothing like that (yes, some authors still choose to build their mod and then convert it to WeiDU these days, but you lose a great many of the advantages that way, and it's generally something that's not to be encouraged). Especially given the fact that there are next to no exclusively non-WeiDU mods surviving now, it'd be more useful to gain experience with the latter.
Unless, of course, you've been developing the entire conversion with script/byte patching, APPEND and manual TRA creation, in which case I have huge respect for your tenacity.

Yeah, I can't read properly. Oops

As for the conversion, I did actually manual script/byte patch with manual APPEND and TRA creation. Thanks. When I looked at the BP-BGT .tp2 file I was shocked to see that every single StrRef that was used in every single file was to be re-written into the dialog.tlk file. I know this is not actually the case, as it looks like WeiDU can recognise a repeated StrRef in the file (or I could be wrong here). What I have done is make sure all existing BG1 StrRefs are used (well, most of them anyway), and if they have been replaced by the BG2 ones in the BG2 dialog.tlk, write them in. It saves a huge number of duplicated StrRefs for starters.

The .tra file is probably quite messy at the moment (due to the manual build) because I added strings in order that I checked through the file types (like STO, then ITM, then CRE). Furthermore, all the BCS and D StrRefs are still contained within there own. I suppose the WeiDU --traify extension will work with those and then change the existing manually created entries to clear it up a little.

For everybody, as for the upload, TheWizard now has the 13.1 MB install archive. Will be up on the servers shortly.

[mr2131]

I'm sorry, Mark, but I can't say I agree with you.  Although I will say that SimDing0 can be a little...'provocative' sometimes, does not mean he is necessarily calling me an idiot.  And yes, they are listening to what is being typed on these forums by me.  As for 'collaboration', there obviously isn't much of that yet, because we still have differing opinions on the issue, but I am making the first step by allowing PPG to use whatever they want out of the release.  Finally, advice is free.  It is up to the person to take it or leave it.  I myself have not taken the slightest offence at the comments made so far, even though some of them I could term a little 'brash' and made me a little edgy at the poor computer screen.  Cheer up mate.     

I'm glad that you've completed your project and that you've made it available for PPG to use. I'm heading off to Intermedia to download the file. Honestly, I think the best long term solution may well be a merger of the best features of BGT and TuTu into one mod. In any case this renewed argument seems a little reminiscent of the discussion that went on last X-Mas time when Horred first decided to go with BGT over TuTu. From what I remember, there were some hurt feeling then too. The one thing about this community that sets my teeth on edge and makes it hard to deal with is backbiting and cat fighting.

If I overstepped and if I went overboard, I'm sorry. My intention was not to hurt feelings, instead my intention was to have y'all stop arguing and work together. I know "Pipe dream."

Mark

Edited by mr2131, 13 February 2005 - 02:07 PM.