78 replies to this topic

[jcompton]

This is very bad in general, but is it necessary?  I believe it is, because of end-user preference.

Or modders could get tough and simply say "No, I am not supporting my mod on that other platform."

For those of you who have read the BGT-WeiDU thread here, when I started that thread with the announcement, I was already FOUR full-blooded days into the development of BGT-WeiDU.  Then SimDing0 comes in with his yadda yadda (which I am certainly not dismissing or ignoring mind you  -- I'll come back to that later) and I thought 'OK, sure.  Valid point', but I ask who would start building a house and 50% through the construction (which is probably a heck of a lot of work), your neighbour comes and says 'No, this is inferior to the idea that I had.  Here is a blueprint'.  The first thought that came into my mind when he first replied to the announcement was 'I can't stop now.  50% through a mod and someone, respected but I do not know very well, tells me that I should be doing something else because HE THINKS IT IS better'.  Sure, four/five days work could PROBABLY be better spent on doing this SUPPOSEDLY BETTER thing, but scrapping a half-built house is demolishing, and besides, if a virus happened to wipe out all that work I did on WeiDU-ising BGT, would I start again?  No.  Would I start a Tutu BGT? No.  Why? Because there is a something called emotion: failure.

Let me tell you a story about a little boy who started working on a mod.

He worked and worked on a mod using inferior tools. Worked away for months and months and got something that almost sort of worked that a few people might maybe want to play. Then that boy found out there was a much more sensible way to go about making the mod. And he was frustrated, momentarily, and at first inclined to simply stay the course because by God, it would be some extra work to go back and do things right and it was really galling that it would have been easier to do it right the first time, so there was temptation not to even bother out of spite.

And then the clouds parted, and the path was changed, and it was good.

THAT BOY WAS GHREYFAIN AND ME.

[Offkorn]

jcompton, you do realize he basicly done right?

[SimDing0]

And how far along was he a few days back, when I first started pointing out issues with the solution?

Besides which, Ghrey effectively wasted months of work. Such are the lessons of modding. Hell, I spent the first few months of my modding career making "stripdowns", which are now a total embarassment and best forgotten. Yes, I even completed them-- three of them. For me, it was a valuable learning experience, but I'm horrified by the notion that the things I produced under sub-optimal understanding might see the light of day again.

Moral: I think you do better by learning from your mistakes than by sticking by them. That... probably applies to lots of things. Maybe.

Edited by SimDing0, 11 February 2005 - 08:59 AM.

[russ]

I'll be honest and admit that what I'm doing in this thread is shopping for my next reinstall of this game. I expect my current party to finish ToB in 2 or 3 months and I am planning to reinstall everything at that point (there have been many changes to TDD, SoS, TS, NEJ, I think BP so, regardless of BGT v. Tutu I will be reinstalling). Right now, as I see it, I can play dsotsc, perhaps ntotsc, sobh (with its soon to released, I hope, second part) as well as grey clan and maybe indira with BGT and all I won't be able to play is Sirine's Call. However, I don't think, if I choose Tutu, I can play dsotsc, ntotsc. Am I right? And while it is possible for there to be continuity between bg1 and bg2 with Tutu this isn't available yet (am i right about this as well?).

Even though from a technical pov Tutu is the simpler and perhaps better solution, BGT was out first, was installed first, and had mods created for it first. I could be wrong but I think this is why there is more content for it. End users are afraid they will lose that content. (I can't speak for modders though Ascension makes alot of sense to me as to why a modder would be resistant even if Tutu is better). Another way of saying this; as an enduser I would make the change if I thought I wasn't losing any content (specifically dsotsc) and I would have more content available if I used Tutu.

[SimDing0]

The end result of a single mod taking over the transition role would, hopefully, be a greater array of content available to users. The issue whereby somebody says "well, this mod is cool, but it's for Tutu and you're using BGT" would disappear completely, since everything would be working on the same platform. Simultaneously, the modders' roles become easier, because they no longer have to worry about maintaining separate Tutu and BGT versions of their mods; this is bound to have positive consequences for mod development.
The isn't gonna happen straight away, unless we all suddenly decide to co-operate nicely, but I'm hoping that after a Tutu Transition is made, we can start looking at compatibility with the mods like BP that you know and love.
Ascension will work with Tutu without any changes, as will most BG2 mods, and even a few BG1 mods if installed prior to conversion. Mods designed for BGT, such as the new DSotSC, will need a few changes (but we're not talking major overhauls here).

Edited by SimDing0, 11 February 2005 - 09:18 AM.

[CamDawg]

Even though from a technical pov Tutu is the simpler and perhaps better solution, BGT was out first, was installed first, and had mods created for it first.

 

Yes, yes, no. If memory serves the Vault item pack was the first mod to target one over the other, followed by Harden Coonor's Tutu addon and then Tutu Tweaks. BGT-specific mods are actually a fairly recent development, and the only one of which I know that remains BGT-only is DSotSC. NSotSC may be; I know very little of the project.

I could be wrong but I think this is why there is more content for it. End users are afraid they will lose that content. (I can't speak for modders though Ascension makes alot of sense to me as to why a modder would be resistant even if Tutu is better). Another way of saying this; as an enduser I would make the change if I thought I wasn't losing any content (specifically dsotsc) and I would have more content available if I used Tutu.

 

I would say that Tutu content is broader and also being more actively developed. DSotSC is the only BGT-only mod as far as I know. Song and Silence, Mur'Neth, Sirine's Call, and Tutu Tweaks remain Tutu exclusives. BG1 NPC, while it does have a BGT port, is not actively developed for BGT so there's a great deal of content (and bugfixes for that matter) exclusive to Tutu. Of the projects in development, I know of one that is for both, two (three if another author gets off his butt) that are Tutu-only. Echon's FotD is also a large project, but intended for BG only--meaning Tutu players would be able to access it while BGT players would not. Echon has also mentioned a Tutu-specific version later, though even as a BG-only mod it should work in Tutu and not in BGT.

[SimDing0]

(three if another author gets off his butt)

Heheheh.

[Gaias]

So does BP and all the mods associated with it, work with Tutu?So does BP and all the mods associated with it, work with Tutu?

I would be happy as a player of mods, to be able to install BG/TOSC + BGII/'TOB and then play them from one gui instead of having to lauch their individual applications.

I would also be more interested in downloading an optional area transition mod, instead of a "as is" mega mod. That way I have a choice of playing the "epic" start to finish, or I could not install it and play specific mods.

Then again the dream for a mod player like me is to play ALL of the mods in one single continous adventure, and have them all compatable and all make sense to eachother! yeah right!

Edited by Gaias, 11 February 2005 - 11:45 AM.

[Offkorn]

And how far along was he a few days back, when I first started pointing out issues with the solution?

 

According to him: 4.

[CamDawg]

(three if another author gets off his butt)

Heheheh.

 

Heh. This was a reference to a longstanding idea I've had, not to other lazy modders. But yeah, that would apply to him as well.

[Ghreyfain]

So does BP and all the mods associated with it, work with Tutu?So does BP and all the mods associated with it, work with Tutu?

Not at the moment, no. Of course, with the advent of WeiDU versions of those mods, they very well could.

The reasons for sticking with BGT at the moment seem to be that a player who wants to play mod X right now, or in the next little while, will need BGT. The modder's reason is that work has already commenced on WeiDUifying it, and even if there's a good deal of work to do, there's a good deal of work to do + another good deal of work to get it to work with Tutu.

The first I think is a valid reason. For now. The second doesn't seem like it's going to end happily. What happens when TDD, SoS, and that whole crew work with Tutu? A Tutu that has a conversion to BG2? A Tutu that remains under 600 MBs. Under 100 MBs. Under 10 MBs, even.

Living in the here and now is fine when you're playing mods, since... yeah, that's what it's about. You want to play now.

But wasting future effort by not expending effort now seems like a waste to me. Writing off work that's already been done is frustrating, but think of all the time that'll be saved in the future.

And, in the future, when and if all the BGT/BP mods work on the Tutu platform, the user will need to re-install and re-configure and all that jazz, but it's been mentioned that they need to do that anyways, so no big deal.

I'd like to think the negative taint TBG left on modding in general could finally end, with people expending a bit more energy to make their mods compatible from the get go, rather than having to make people like Horred come along later and spend far more energy to make a limited number of mods work properly together.

[mr2131]

So does BP and all the mods associated with it, work with Tutu?So does BP and all the mods associated with it, work with Tutu?

Not at the moment, no. Of course, with the advent of WeiDU versions of those mods, they very well could.

The reasons for sticking with BGT at the moment seem to be that a player who wants to play mod X right now, or in the next little while, will need BGT. The modder's reason is that work has already commenced on WeiDUifying it, and even if there's a good deal of work to do, there's a good deal of work to do + another good deal of work to get it to work with Tutu.

The first I think is a valid reason. For now. The second doesn't seem like it's going to end happily. What happens when TDD, SoS, and that whole crew work with Tutu? A Tutu that has a conversion to BG2? A Tutu that remains under 600 MBs. Under 100 MBs. Under 10 MBs, even.

Living in the here and now is fine when you're playing mods, since... yeah, that's what it's about. You want to play now.

But wasting future effort by not expending effort now seems like a waste to me. Writing off work that's already been done is frustrating, but think of all the time that'll be saved in the future.

And, in the future, when and if all the BGT/BP mods work on the Tutu platform, the user will need to re-install and re-configure and all that jazz, but it's been mentioned that they need to do that anyways, so no big deal.

I'd like to think the negative taint TBG left on modding in general could finally end, with people expending a bit more energy to make their mods compatible from the get go, rather than having to make people like Horred come along later and spend far more energy to make a limited number of mods work properly together.

 

Listen, I'm getting really tired of hearing grown men engaging in a public pissing contest. If Ascension 64 has decided to create a WEIDU of BGT either help him or get the hell out of his way. If you're truly interested in producing a better product and aren't willing to do it yourself, find out exactly what Ascension 64 needs to improve his project then figure out how to help him create it. If you have a better product then roll it out. In any case, quit pissing and act like an adult.

Mark

[Ascension64]

Listen, I'm getting really tired of hearing grown men engaging in a public pissing contest. If Ascension 64 has decided to create a WEIDU of BGT either help him or get the hell out of his way. If you're truly interested in producing a better product and aren't willing to do it yourself, find out exactly what Ascension 64 needs to improve his project then figure out how to help him create it. If you have a better product then roll it out. In any case, quit pissing and act like an adult.

Mark

Umm.....no comment.

[Kalindor]

Listen, I'm getting really tired of hearing grown men engaging in a public pissing contest. If Ascension 64 has decided to create a WEIDU of BGT either help him or get the hell out of his way. If you're truly interested in producing a better product and aren't willing to do it yourself, find out exactly what Ascension 64 needs to improve his project then figure out how to help him create it. If you have a better product then roll it out. In any case, quit pissing and act like an adult.

Mark

I think the possibility of Ascension taking a different approach to this mod effort has basically now been extinguished by the large amount of work put into the project. While I see Mark's reply as somewhat overly-harsh for a thread expressly for this discussion, I think that Sim's and Camdawg's arguments would hold more bearing if, as Camdawg said, "TDD, SoS, and that whole crew work with Tutu? A Tutu that has a conversion to BG2? A Tutu that remains under 600 MBs. Under 100 MBs. Under 10 MBs, even." I would be very eager to play such a "BP-Tutu." However, I am obliged to wait for a more motivated modder to make this idea happen. Perhaps our Tutu advocates could be the founders of such a project?

[Ghreyfain]

If Ascension 64 has decided to create a WEIDU of BGT either help him or get the hell out of his way.

I'm trying to help him, by convincing him that making a WeiDU version of a BG1 -> 2 transition for Tutu is the best course of action.

If you're truly interested in producing a better product and aren't willing to do it yourself, find out exactly what Ascension 64 needs to improve his project then figure out how to help him create it.

Again, I am trying to help him, but if he doesn't accept it, that's fine. I already have produced a product of a similar nature. It's called Baldur's Gate 1 Tutu. You may have heard of it. http://www.pocketplane.net/tutu

If you have a better product then roll it out. In any case, quit pissing and act like an adult.

Real men can piss while standing up, without taking their Tutu off. Some of us just have better handWRITE_BYTEing than others.

I think that Sim's and Camdawg's arguments would hold more bearing if, as Camdawg said, "TDD, SoS, and that whole crew work with Tutu? A Tutu that has a conversion to BG2? A Tutu that remains under 600 MBs. Under 100 MBs. Under 10 MBs, even." I would be very eager to play such a "BP-Tutu."

As Sim has said, we're working on a proof-of-concept mod to show that, yes, it's rather easy to make a transition for Tutu. The thing is that if Ascension is interested in improving the, uh, "genre", then it seems a shame to see his talents go to waste.

Oh, and my name is Ghreyfain, not Camdawg. I'll have to remember to ask him if he's flattered or insulted by that mistake.

[Kalindor]

As Sim has said, we're working on a proof-of-concept mod to show that, yes, it's rather easy to make a transition for Tutu.  The thing is that if Ascension is interested in improving the, uh, "genre", then it seems a shame to see his talents go to waste.

Oh, and my name is Ghreyfain, not Camdawg.  I'll have to remember to ask him if he's flattered or insulted by that mistake.

My bad, Ghreyfain, I must have been reading the posters' names in reverse on the previous posts list.

Anywho, a transition is all well and good, but I was really referring to compatibility with the Big Picture weidu mod. Given a transition of comparable quality, I must say that the next deciding factor for me is elegance of implementation. From what I've understood here, It sounds like Tutu will have a more streamlined implementation than even the weidu BGT, but I'm not going to make that call prematurely. As someone already said, I'm in the process of "shopping" for which mods to use during my next play through BP.

Edited by Kalindor, 11 February 2005 - 10:31 PM.

[Ghreyfain]

Anywho, a transition is all well and good

Right. People've just been mentioning that as a major sticking point.

but I was really referring to compatibility with the Big Picture weidu mod.

Don't know too much about that, myself. If it works fine in a vanilla BG2 installation, it'll most likely work fine on a Tutuified version.

Given a transition of comparable quality, I must say that the next deciding factor for me is elegance of implementation.

Yeah, neither one have a completely user-friendly method of installation. Cross your fingers that v6 of Tutu gets that one sorted out.

[Ascension64]

If Ascension 64 has decided to create a WEIDU of BGT either help him or get the hell out of his way.

I'm trying to help him, by convincing him that making a WeiDU version of a BG1 -> 2 transition for Tutu is the best course of action.

I'm interested, Ghreyfain, in your personal opinion of why this is the best course of action. As I said before, the only advantage I believe Tutu to have over BGT is the size, and personally I don't think that is why I should be working on BGT Tutu instead of the other one.

I think that Sim's and Camdawg's arguments would hold more bearing if, as Camdawg said, "TDD, SoS, and that whole crew work with Tutu? A Tutu that has a conversion to BG2? A Tutu that remains under 600 MBs. Under 100 MBs. Under 10 MBs, even." I would be very eager to play such a "BP-Tutu."

As Sim has said, we're working on a proof-of-concept mod to show that, yes, it's rather easy to make a transition for Tutu. The thing is that if Ascension is interested in improving the, uh, "genre", then it seems a shame to see his talents go to waste.

That's very good for the community, and I appreciate it, but don't do it for me. I did say that I thought it was going to be difficult to make a transition for Tutu, but that disappeared a very long time ago (and that was an uninformed remark as well).

[mr2131]

I'm trying to help him, by convincing him that making a WeiDU version of a BG1 -> 2 transition for Tutu is the best course of action.

Since he's stated that that is not his intent, your not helping him in any meaningful fashion. From what I've read, the TuTu advocates keep saying the same thing over and over again. There must be something wrong with you because your not doing this our way and you can't see our obvious brilliance.

Again, I am trying to help him, but if he doesn't accept it, that's fine. I already have produced a product of a similar nature. It's called Baldur's Gate 1 Tutu. You may have heard of it. http://www.pocketplane.net/tutu

I've read about it and it doesn't do what I wanted a BG1 conversion to do, which is to allow me to play a single character, and or party, through BG1, SOA, and TOB. I didn't see any point in downloading it when, at the time there was a product with a greater upside available. The original intention of this particular BGT WEIDU was to create an updated component for BP. Hence, it's appearance in the BP-BGT forum. Unless TuTu can be reshaped to provide all of the functionality of BGT, including compatibility with BP, then it certainly isn't the correct solution for this problem.

Real men can piss while standing up, without taking their Tutu off. Some of us just have better handWRITE_BYTEing than others.

Typical. Real men don't act like spoiled ten year olds when someone points out that they're acting childish.

As Sim has said, we're working on a proof-of-concept mod to show that, yes, it's rather easy to make a transition for Tutu.

Excellent. If you can make TuTu perform all the functions of BGT within the BP-BGT mod, without requiring everything else written for BP to be rewritten, I'll download it and give it a spin.

Mark