One night in the coffers and this thread explodes! I'm really amazed at how much discussion this has created and am glad to read all this. Anyone may disagree with me now, but I will now attempt to sum up how I see the debate.
There seem to be many issues regarding what Tutu does and doesn't and what BP-
BGT does and doesn't. Firstly, I really don't think that is an issue, because both Tutu and BP-
BGT should be able to be made to do the same things. They are both using the same Infinity Engine from BioWare. The issue, however, is time, and this will depend on the person's tastes. Some people want things now and some people have the patience to wait for the 'best' version of named mod before they will play. For example, SoBH was first released by Sir BillyBob as a BP-
BGT mod, and there was much rejoicing because it was the first mod aimed directly at that. Later, it was converted into Tutu, and there was also much rejoicing, but people who really wanted to try out this new adventure straight away would have to play it on BP-
BGT first. Same thing goes for a Tutu mod like Indira
NPC, which only has been released for BP-
BGT within last week or so. So, the patience of people is an issue, but not the capabilities of Tutu vs. BP-
BGT.
The second major issue is regarding continuity and the transitions. Some people like them, some people don't, due to all sorts of reasons, including technicalities and impracticalities (of re-install or starting a new game or whatever). Personally, I think the BP-
BGT transition is fully flawed and so is the continuity. I do quote here the statement that if Quayle dies in
BG1 then technically Aerie and the circus should never have come into the plane of existence when the player starts Shadows of Amn. However, this, given the time and effort and willingness, can also be changed to suit. Further, it can be done with not either Tutu or BP-
BGT, but BOTH Tutu and BP-
BGT, if the need arises. So again, this is not an issue IF people are willing to give the mentioned time, effort, and willingness to work on better technical and practical continuity and transitions, and the end user waits patiently for it.
Same div for the expansions:
TDD, SoS, BP,
NTotSC,
DSotSC. They can also be converted and made to work perfectly given the time. Again, not an argument in this debate because TIME is the major factor. I can hear people screaming
BGT is better NOW because it has the mentioned mods. That is a time issue.
The impact of size on the end user IS one argument that favours Tutu, and I totally agree. With slow servers, not even a 1 MB connection will get you Bardez's original
BGT MK3 112 release in the allotted time of 657 seconds, which is the size of the blasted archive. No, I am not going to say that this a server issue, that we need better servers. Rather, people must make use of what resources they have, and at the moment, we have slow, narky servers. Thus, we should be aiming to reduce file size. Tutu is excellent at this in only about 600 kb. On this issue, Tutu will definitely be superior, unless
BGT finds a way of converting the
BG1 areas, but that would make it quite close to a copy of Tutu then, wouldn't it?
To clear up the save game/new game issue for people, the point here is that save games become invalidated due to two major factors:
1. Joinable NPCs that get saved in the save game can get changed, destroying the save game -- by this I don't just mean the items they have, the sound sets they have, or the scripts they have, but most importantly the StrRefs -- for example, if you install a newer version of a mod and that newer version just happens to alter the dialog.tlk file a slight bit more (such as new strings) than the older version, and you follow installing this newer version of the mod by a different mod, then the new mod's StrRefs is offset by X than your previous install. Now if your save game had characters from the 'different mod', then by golly your
NPC may be named 'This door is locked.'
2. The world map is saved into the save game -- world map updates generally invalidate save games IF they delete areas or change the position of any areas (new areas I'm not too sure about but technically shouldn't make a different) -- obviously, one way to attempt to fix this is to copy the WORLDMAP.WMP from the new mod into your save game, but then you would have to modify the WMP to change the flags of every single area you have visited, or got revealed in your game
I do not know about how Tutu managed the world map (though I think I read about the world map totally changes in each game, i.e. no master world map), but I believe the save game issue may well be the same here. On this point, Tutu PROBABLY edges in front on the world map issue, but it still may have problems when different mods change the world map. So, the save game issue may apply to both Tutu and BP-
BGT.
The final points that I would like to make are the issues of work, centralisation and end-user preference.
Modders have and a currently investing a lot of time and energy into making mods for either Tutu or BP-
BGT. Most importantly however, modders have invested a lot of time and energy into CONVERTING mods from Tutu to BP-
BGT or from BP-
BGT to Tutu. A couple of examples of the former are the
BG1NPC Project, and The Grey Clan, and for the latter, Secret of Bonehill. This obviously has a major impact on the centralisation issue, which I will touch on later, as someone pointed out. Specifically, one would be forced to bug fix two versions of the same mod. This is very bad in general, but is it necessary? I believe it is, because of end-user preference.
As you can see just in this thread, there are people who like BP-
BGT, there are people who like Tutu, and there are people who prefer neither. Forcing people to play only one platform will be better for the community as whole, CONSIDERING THAT one platform was only available in the first place. If Tutu would have been released much earlier in the cycle, then this could be achieved. However, the introduction of Tutu at the time that it was introduced is comparable to the introduction of a new religion, or a new political party. For example, you try telling the terrorists that democracy is not evil, but is better. You try promoting Christianity in front of the Buddhists. In both cases, the land is divided. There are people who do one, and there are other people who do the other. Pushing people to centralise towards one platform is next to impossible, unless you rule by terror. Thus, next to impossible. One 'one-in-a-billion' situation is that all modders come to a complete consensus on a single platform, but that seriously is not likely to happen at all. Thus, for the sake of the end-user, it seems that two platforms, no matter how much of a disadvantage that will be to the modder, is the better choice in this kind of climate.
Therefore, in my terms, the only thing that separates Tutu from
BGT is the size factor, and possibly the 'quicker' install, which I haven't quite touched on. If you are a compulsive fan, you can also add the 'what-
BGT-has-now' and 'what-Tutu-has-now' factor into it, but remember that I said time is the issue there. I do not necessarily think that that makes Tutu BETTER than
BGT (and that is not genuine, because I still have not tried Tutu yet), but I do believe that mods for both platforms is still required, and probably forever will be required, unless someone is going to be a Leon Trotsky or Martin Luther King and sway the masses (if you'd like to try it SimDing0, I encourage it). As I said, I do not believe that that will be achievable.
I should note, finally, that this is not the primary reason I began
WeiDU-ising Bardez's
BGT. The primary reason is that this was the only platform I knew most about and it obviously felt easier for me to do. However, even knowing much more about Tutu from these discussion would still not change my mind about making a Tutu
BGT instead of my current action IF I hadn't started working on anything yet. The impetus came from Horred's excellent work in
WeiDU-ising
TDD, SoS, and later BPv170. He explicitly stated that we would not take the task of
WeiDU-ising
BGT and I thought that it would be both a good experience for me, and a bonus for the community, to do such a thing. For those of you who have read the
BGT-
WeiDU thread here, when I started that thread with the announcement, I was already FOUR full-blooded days into the development of
BGT-
WeiDU. Then SimDing0 comes in with his yadda yadda (which I am certainly not dismissing or ignoring mind you
-- I'll come back to that later) and I thought 'OK, sure. Valid point', but I ask who would start building a house and 50% through the construction (which is probably a heck of a lot of work), your neighbour comes and says 'No, this is inferior to the idea that I had. Here is a blueprint'. The first thought that came into my mind when he first replied to the announcement was 'I can't stop now. 50% through a mod and someone, respected but I do not know very well, tells me that I should be doing something else because HE THINKS IT IS better'. Sure, four/five days work could PROBABLY be better spent on doing this SUPPOSEDLY BETTER thing, but scrapping a half-built house is demolishing, and besides, if a virus happened to wipe out all that work I did on
WeiDU-ising
BGT, would I start again? No. Would I start a Tutu
BGT? No. Why? Because there is a something called emotion: failure. Poor Horred is burning in his cradle with his NWN mod and needs time out. In capitalising 'he think it is...' and 'supposedly better' above, I mean that more research needs to be done to formulate MY OWN OPINION into the issue (NOT to discredit SimDing0 in any way). You don't just listen and follow. In my experience, only lemmings do that! And even if I did find out that it was better -- I come to the point again that I believe size is the only major factor -- that would still not influence me such to trash all my work.
To conclude,
BGT-
WeiDU is going ahead, and if people don't like it, OK. That is your decision, folks. If people do like it, then I thank you for appreciating the work I did. I make an analogy to computer game companies here, and games such as Warhammer 40000: Fire Warrior, and the online Terminator game that I cannot remember the exact name of. They totally hit rock bottom, and if it happens to me, then OK, I will learn from it. If that happens and you want to rub that in SimDing0, then fine, it is natural for some people to do that (and I am not suggesting that you are one of those types SimDing0).
We do things for a reason, and if that reason was flawed, then we learn from it.
(I very much appreciate the lively discussion posted here. It really has bettered me in terms of the formulation of my exact opinion on this issue. To SimDing0, I very much appreciate the argument you put forward, as it has not just helped me, but the community as well, but I would just remind you that this is the internet, and this is my hobby, so please do not take 'no answer' as an attempt at ignorance. I do apologise on that matter and will try to read posts more thoroughly, especially yours to satiate that sensitivity)
To everyone out there (including SimDing0), thanks for taking your time to read this post. If you disagree with anything, feel free to speak out. This, and I mean THIS, is a free world.
Cheers.
