247 replies to this topic

[NiGHTMARE]

Also, lets not forget that if you install too many WeiDU mods that contain new music, you'll still get a crash...

[SimDing0]

WeiDU cannot fix such bad practice for a modder automatically, it just does what you tell it to do.

I just find it fairly ironic that you imply that the man who was originally the key proponent of WeiDU and mod compatibility (during a time where key figures in the community told players that "mod compatibility is not important" and "nobody should expect to play more than one mod at a time") is indulging in bad practice by not running head over heel to make his mod compatible with various other products which a) made no effort to return the favour until recently, and b) were released after his with no regard to said compatibility.

Of course, if it's entirely a coincidence that the issue of modmakers not caring about compatibility came up in the same paragraph as Kelsey not being compatible with BP, then I apologise for the misunderstanding.

Edited by SimDing0, 09 April 2005 - 05:36 AM.

[Yacomo]

Of course, if it's entirely a coincidence that the issue of modmakers not caring about compatibility came up in the same paragraph as Kelsey not being compatible with BP, then I apologise for the misunderstanding.

Sim, I was not referring to Kelsey at all.

* EDIT * I was not implying anything towards the authors of Kelsey. Again you are trying to put words into my mouth. Why?

Edited by Yacomo, 09 April 2005 - 05:46 AM.

[SimDing0]

I don't think reading "then all the makers of Kelsey and other mods would have to do is finally stop using PlaySong() and use PlaySound() instead" and "they are simply the consequence of mod makers not caring too much about compatibility" and putting two and two together is really putting words in your mouth. Perhaps I'm just not all the happy about the notion that we're always the ones doing stuff wrong.

[Yacomo]

I don't think reading "then all the makers of Kelsey and other mods would have to do is finally stop using PlaySong() and use PlaySound() instead" and "they are simply the consequence of mod makers not caring too much about compatibility" and putting two and two together is really putting words in your mouth. Perhaps I'm just not all the happy about the notion that we're always the ones doing stuff wrong.

My apologies here, I did not mean to offend you or anyone else. Perhaps we can close this discussion by stating that mod makers should use PlaySound() in the future where possible in order to save resources? And maybe 'somebody' is willing to patch Kelsey after 'the favour has been returned'?

[Ascension64]

I don't think reading "then all the makers of Kelsey and other mods would have to do is finally stop using PlaySong() and use PlaySound() instead" and "they are simply the consequence of mod makers not caring too much about compatibility" and putting two and two together is really putting words in your mouth. Perhaps I'm just not all the happy about the notion that we're always the ones doing stuff wrong.

I do wonder what is 'wrong' other than people trying to slap different mods together that were made NOT in the mindset of compatibility, but in the interests of the modders imagination and satisfaction -- because...many mods out there are primarily standalone or were made to be put on top of ONE mod.

Adventures always lead to their downfalls...

Edited by Ascension64, 09 April 2005 - 05:58 AM.

[SimDing0]

My apologies here, I did not mean to offend you or anyone else.

No offense taken. (I was a bit disappointed to find that I'm usually snappy, but no harm done, heheh.)

Perhaps we can close this discussion by stating that mod makers should use PlaySound() in the future where possible in order to save resources? And maybe 'somebody' is willing to patch Kelsey after 'the favour has been returned'?

Well, I think JC is planning a Kelsey update at some point, but I'm still not hugely excited by there being lag every time a lovetalk starts. There doesn't really seem to be an entirely satisfactory solution here, unfortunately.

I do wonder what is 'wrong' other than people trying to slap different mods together that were made NOT in the mindset of compatibility, but in the interests of the modders imagination and satisfaction -- because...many mods out there are primarily standalone or were made to be put on top of ONE mod.

I don't believe that's remotely true, though. It's pretty commonplace for people to have 50 or so WeiDU mods installed and working fine, and this is obviously a result of their design. Given this, the fact that they don't work over BP-BGT is, I'd say, more likely because BP-BGT makes compatibility more difficult to achieve than because the modmakers aren't concerned. This isn't necessarily due to poor design on the BP end, since with such massive additions to the game I wouldn't expect everything to work smoothly, although that said I'm not really a fan of huge packages of content like TDD or SoS anyway, since I think they can fairly easily be broken down into smaller optional components. The fact that they're not broken down is why it's harder to make things compatible with them, because there's more to account for-- it's the equivalent of trying to make your mod compatible with all to 200 or so WeiDU mods out there. Pretty tricky. However, dealing with smaller sections, you can achieve compatibility with maybe 90% of other mods relatively easily, The point? I don't think it's modder laziness that contributes, but equally, I'm not saying BP horribly wrecks WeiDU comaptibility or anything.

Edited by SimDing0, 09 April 2005 - 06:10 AM.

[NiGHTMARE]

If you're installing NeJ, make sure it's v1 rather than v2. The latter has some compatability issues with BP.

[adrich81]

I don't believe that's remotely true, though. It's pretty commonplace for people to have 50 or so WeiDU mods installed and working fine, and this is obviously a result of their design. Given this, the fact that they don't work over BP-BGT is, I'd say, more likely because BP-BGT makes compatibility more difficult to achieve than because the modmakers aren't concerned. This isn't necessarily due to poor design on the BP end, since with such massive additions to the game I wouldn't expect everything to work smoothly, although that said I'm not really a fan of huge packages of content like TDD or SoS anyway, since I think they can fairly easily be broken down into smaller optional components. The fact that they're not broken down is why it's harder to make things compatible with them, because there's more to account for-- it's the equivalent of trying to make your mod compatible with all to 200 or so WeiDU mods out there. Pretty tricky. However, dealing with smaller sections, you can achieve compatibility with maybe 90% of other mods relatively easily, The point? I don't think it's modder laziness that contributes, but equally, I'm not saying BP horribly wrecks WeiDU comaptibility or anything.

Surely the only thing that keeps interest in this game alive is the sheer quantity of high (comparatively) qulaity mods. Let's face it SoA may be one of the best written cRPGs out there, but the graphics are starting to get a bit dated now... I know when Horred started this project way back in the day that there were a lot of members of the community who were sceptical (to say the least). These days surely BP is a major incentive to replay the game, so at the very least other modders should ensure out of self interest that their mod is compatible.

[SimDing0]

From my experience, the number of people who find BP the most attractive prospect to play the game is a minority. There are still thousands of people out there who are content to stick with various of smaller mods and replay the game. Obviously, yes, compatibility with BP does increase your playerbase marginally. But only marginally, I'd estimate. For a fair number of modders, it's probably not worthwhile on that basis alone, so other factors come into play.

Edited by SimDing0, 09 April 2005 - 09:16 AM.

[horred the plague]

From my experience, the number of people who find BP the most attractive prospect to play the game is a minority. There are still thousands of people out there who are content to stick with various of smaller mods and replay the game. Obviously, yes, compatibility with BP does increase your playerbase marginally. But only marginally, I'd estimate. For a fair number of modders, it's probably not worthwhile on that basis alone, so other factors come into play.

Let's not forget that I originally wrote BP for myself, and later decided to share it with everybody due to large request. Nobody had done anything like this before, not even close. I remember all the skeptics, telling me "it couldn't be done." I can clearly laugh loudly in their face now (were this not cyberspace, hehe).

BP was originally meant to be merely a compatability of the only three large mods of its time, with a couple weidu's thrown on top for "ease of use". It was the fans that decided they wanted EVERYTHING under the moon and stars attached to it. It was neither my intention nor personal choice--but let the people speak, I say. After all, released mods are made for "user satisfaction" not pure personal gratification.

It wasn't until later that BP grew into something larger, when I decided that "mere compatability" of these 3 mods was not enough (due, again, to the urging of a growing fanbase). NTM--I had learned a lot about modding during the process, had a lot of ideas of my own (especially about things I didn't like--default enemy AI is the most shining example), and was actually urged to add my own personal touch to this piece of work (again, by fan request).

Once I began rewriting entire rulesets, half the creature files, 80% of the AI, and much more--BP stepped out of the "just another mod" category--in my opinion. BP is indeed a remaking of most of the entire game, while keeping the integrity of the plot intact. There is nothing else quite like it out there, and I doubt there ever will be. I know I would never bother to do such a thing again, given the time back. But now that it is done, I feel the extra time to make it more installer-friendly is part of its natural progression, and my own obligation to the people it has brought continuing pleasure to.

In its own way, BP approaches the category of "total conversion". As such, it should be given some degree of "special consideration". But, keep in mind, I'm a reasonable guy and try to please the many. The main reason for me to take the time to convert something that already worked, and quite well. The other reason--I want to clean up my personal portfolio of modding, because I am honestly considering trying to do this professionally at last.

I like to humor myself by thinking that my work on this compatability project has at least inspired some cross-section of the community to be more collaborative and considerate of others' work. I hope that it has brought a community once full of schism a bit closer to unity. After all, we're all doing the same thing--in our own way, with our own style, and with our own creativity. I am honored by how many modders take "compatability with BP" as a consideration in their own efforts. In return, I try to do my best to make this task as easy on them as I can. Have I not gone out of my way to achieve ths end, on more than one occasion in the past 2 1/2 years? Have I not offered advice to other modders, whether they had any intention of BP-compatability or not? And have I not inspired people to step beyond the bounds of "game-player" into the realm of "modmaker"? (Again, something I am quite proud of).

Personally, Sim, I think BP has if anything grown more popular since the early days. After 6 months away, I came back pleasantly surprised that not only had it not been forgotten, but it had achieved one of my goals--that people would make mods FOR it. And found what appears to be (statistically speaking) the most popular forums on this fine website with a long history of modding excellence. Trust, me, I am highly flattered (and honored) by this.

Side note: do you really think that once it is made into a more user-friendly content, it's fan base will not grow whatsoever? Especially if I can achieve the flexibility of allowing the individual to choose which of these three mega-they wish, or wish not to, install.?

Another side thought: How many people would still be playing TDD, SoS, and/or TS without BP, do you think? My gut instincts tell me: not many.

I know this mod is not for everybody, everybody has different tastes. "You can't please everyone, all of the time." But a great many have avoided BP simply because of the difficulty involved in installing it. Others because they "like this mod, but not that one." Maybe some because they feel that such things were never meant to be done, plots shouldn't be blended in such a way--although I feel this is at best a small minority.

I guess that time will be the best judge of all of this. I leave it in the hands of the ultimate critics--the general public itself.

[Ascension64]

I do wonder what is 'wrong' other than people trying to slap different mods together that were made NOT in the mindset of compatibility, but in the interests of the modders imagination and satisfaction -- because...many mods out there are primarily standalone or were made to be put on top of ONE mod.

I don't believe that's remotely true, though. It's pretty commonplace for people to have 50 or so WeiDU mods installed and working fine, and this is obviously a result of their design. Given this, the fact that they don't work over BP-BGT is, I'd say, more likely because BP-BGT makes compatibility more difficult to achieve than because the modmakers aren't concerned. This isn't necessarily due to poor design on the BP end, since with such massive additions to the game I wouldn't expect everything to work smoothly, although that said I'm not really a fan of huge packages of content like TDD or SoS anyway, since I think they can fairly easily be broken down into smaller optional components. The fact that they're not broken down is why it's harder to make things compatible with them, because there's more to account for-- it's the equivalent of trying to make your mod compatible with all to 200 or so WeiDU mods out there. Pretty tricky. However, dealing with smaller sections, you can achieve compatibility with maybe 90% of other mods relatively easily, The point? I don't think it's modder laziness that contributes, but equally, I'm not saying BP horribly wrecks WeiDU comaptibility or anything.

I can tell you I have much first-hand experience with this kind of mess from the TES3:Morrowind community. After several months of people releasing mods that did all sorts of appealing things, it was typical for a player to run 200 mods at the same time. Using the TESCS, I managed to merge a large number of mods together only to find that some way into the game, the game would get an exception error and quit every single time, which is very offputting.

It is obvious that gluing a number of mods large and small together will cause unexpected problems, but I don't necessarily see a bunch of large mods as being more difficult to manage than a large number of small mods because they would take about the same time to go bug searching in the code. If anything, 200 instead of 5 sounds more daunting. However, I believe it is more that the in-game aspects of these mods are probably much more inaccessible than something like Ease-of-Use, which takes effect pretty much straight away. In this I mean that a player might need to play through a large chunk of BioWare-wroking material of BG2 just to be able to access something new (like a chapter restriction or similar) and the chances someone would decide that they would visit a totally new area straight from the start can be quite low because they want to ensure that they build up their character first. You probably wouldn't see this with an NPC like Kelsey because you can just pick him up without affecting too much storyline.

The reason I think that the large mods are having difficulties 'being compatible' with smaller mods is because that some of them, like TDD, and SoS, are generally out of development and the developers have decided to do something else. They would have the knowledge of exactly what happens in their program and so are best to tweak it for compatibility. But now they are gone, and a new generation steps in. They can only gather what they gather, and apart from converting to WeiDU or something similar, the bugs/incompatibilities probably become ignored due to lack of knowledge or made into a new patch rather than touching the original mod itself. Hopefully, this will change with the WeiDUisation of mods. If we could break them down into small bits, not necessarily as optional components, but at least to do some kind of developer's documentation on them, then I think that would be a great step towards these compatibility aspects of modding. Again, I stress that it is likely to be a lack of knowledge from the general modding community that is slowing down or preventing consideration of compatibility.

I myself am going to do a full developer's documentation of BGT-WeiDU (as best as I can) to detail exactly what has been altered and what pretty much everything is for, and hopefully, this will help people to understand how this mod changes things and, without rigorously and tediously searching through all the .tp2 code for a single line that screws up a mod, hopefully it would make 'compatbility modding' a more efficient task.

[adrich81]

Certainly the prospect of BP-weidu is what's finally persuaded to reinstall BG2. I suppose alot of fans are influenced either way by connection speed and mod size. Sure a bunch of 5meg npc mods is good fun when you're on dialup, but as soon as you're on broadband it gets well worth the time to download the big boyz. Personally I'm still amazed that there is still so much interest in the game and mods after this long

[Ascension64]

Certainly the prospect of BP-weidu is what's finally persuaded to reinstall BG2.  I suppose alot of fans are influenced either way by connection speed and mod size.  Sure a bunch of 5meg npc mods is good fun when you're on dialup, but as soon as you're on broadband it gets well worth the time to download the big boyz.  Personally I'm still amazed that there is still so much interest in the game and mods after this long

Shall I add that there is a thriving Doom I and Doom II modding community still? One of the reasons is that many people cannot afford a spick and spam computer -- hence, the continued interest in older games.

[NiGHTMARE]

i actually meant the weidu versions of tdd, sos and ts and as far as i know of bp is not out there yet right or did i get you wrong?

I'm not sure those three are compatible without BP, even in their WeiDU incarnations. Even if they are, probably only TS WeiDU will be compatible with NeJ v2, since they have the same authors; the other two almost certainly won't be.

Shall I add that there is a thriving Doom I and Doom II modding community still?  One of the reasons is that many people cannot afford a spick and spam computer -- hence, the continued interest in older games.

Hmm, you don't by any chance go by the name Archvile64 in the Doom community, do you?

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 10 April 2005 - 06:12 AM.

[Ascension64]

Shall I add that there is a thriving Doom I and Doom II modding community still?  One of the reasons is that many people cannot afford a spick and spam computer -- hence, the continued interest in older games.

Hmm, you don't by any chance go by the name Archvile64 in the Doom community, do you?

Why, is he notorious for working on ambitiously humungus projects?
Doom 2 days was a long time ago for me. I never did any active modding for it though, the reason being that I kept getting a faster computer and newer games appealed, like BG!