I won't give away too much, but I am fairly sure that the crappy reviews comes out of disappointment. When people expects a 10, it's difficult to settle with a 6/7 and so, they end up giving it a crappy score.
I agree that the magazines rate the game a little too high though.
NWN 2
Started by
-Icelandic_Boy-
, Jan 18 2005 01:50 PM
300 replies to this topic
#281
Grunker
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Prince Charming
Posted 23 November 2006 - 07:54 AM
"I've heard people complain that the game [the new Prince of Persia] is too easy, which seems odd to me, since I died more times than The Nameless One in a smoothie-maker."
- Yahtzee
- Yahtzee
#282
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Posted 23 November 2006 - 10:44 AM
I won't give away too much, but I am fairly sure that the crappy reviews comes out of disappointment. When people expects a 10, it's difficult to settle with a 6/7 and so, they end up giving it a crappy score.
I agree that the magazines rate the game a little too high though.
Oh, there are plenty of things to complain about, let me list just a few:
A. I think the major complaint is the graphics.
1) There are currently very few systems out there that can run it properly.
I'm getting terrible graphical response even on bare minimum settings.
The facial features are barely recognizable, the hair looks like globs of polygons, the external sky looks like a scene from the Twilight Zone and I'm still getting less than 10 FPS when there are more than 15 enemies on screen.
2) There are multiple gameplay views but none of them is really well-suited for gameplay.
The top-down view is probably the best, until you make a transition from the interior of a house to the exterior, upon which you are greeted with a jumbled view of the back of your character's head, and you have to switch to a different view just to move properly.
B. The plot is uncreative.
Without getting into much details, the main plot is basically a rehash of Shadow of Undrentide expansion of the original Neverwinter Nights.
They even put the idiotic lizard Deekin (Jar Jar Binks of Neverwinter Nights) in this game!
Fortunately you aren't forced to take him with you, otherwise this game would be unbearable.
On the plus side, the main campaign of NWN2 has a much less "linear" feel than any of the original NWN campaigns.
C. Too many generic NPCs.
Both a good and a bad thing.
The joinable NPCs are very well developed, the non generic NPCs are much fewer but slightly better developed than the original NWN and expansions.
But most of the inhabitants Faerun are basically mindless zombies the same one-liners over and over again, almost a fallback to the old Ultima games (Hail Britannia!
)D. Confusing interface.
One of the good points (in my opinion) about NWN2 is that all items take up one item slot, less of the hassle in rearranging items. But the icons they use to represent items are barely recognizable, you can't tell the difference between a cloak and a piece of wood. You can't tell if something is a spell scroll that weighs nothing or a heavy piece armor that encumber you.
If Obsidian spent a fraction of the time they took to create 3-D models that even the top-of-the-line computers have a hard time running to create some recognizable icons for items....
This is my take on the game so far. If I finish the game, I'll give a more thorough review.
#283
khay
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- Modder
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Swords to Rust, Hearts to Dust
Posted 24 November 2006 - 09:11 AM
Thanks for your posts, Lurker. I personally think Deekin is a cool 'lizard', though. 
#284
Archmage Silver
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- Member
- 6654 posts
Master of The Art
Posted 24 November 2006 - 09:19 AM
I agree with khay, Deekin is kinda funneh... not as annoying as Jar Jar by any means. 
I don't like the interface too much either, I think the one in NWN 1 was actually better.
I don't like the interface too much either, I think the one in NWN 1 was actually better.
#285
MorningGlory
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- Member
- 796 posts
Posted 24 November 2006 - 02:39 PM
****Minor SPOILER*****
I like Deekin -- although, I confess, when I first 'met' him in Undertide, I was majorly annoyed by him, but by HotU, he had grown on me and developed into a wonderful Henchie. I was relieved to see him -- although I wish they would have made his graphic more to the 'Deekin' that I recall, and not just a badly-illustrated kobold with no similarities.
Other than your personal comments regarding Deekin, Lurker, I agree with you. I, too, don't have a 'high-end' system, but I can play just about everything else on this 'old heap,' and without a problem. One of the first things I noticed about the game were the great similarities to KotOR2 graphics, of which I was never really plussed. Globs of color for hair, badly-defined features -- yes, almost an instant replay of KotOR2. (And, this was after 87 mg of patches... )
Overall, the main story/plot was a little better than average, although when it should have been the most interesting (the finalization of the build in Act III), the writing was hurried -- or non-existent, and in many places the story became as ill-defined as the attendant graphics. (As an example, their idea of a 'romance' was in reality a badly scripted one-night stand that happens in Act III -- not even a one-night stand, really, as it's interrupted by a call to arms, and you never hear a peep from your lover as to what happened, or didn't happen after that.) The intro to that 'romance' is really cheesy, also. Loosely translated, he (PC is a female fighter) says to her, "..We're going to war tomorrow and we don't know where we will end up, so let's get busy tonight!!"
After all the hype, I think most players expected more. But on the bright side, there are a cazillion opportunities to add mod materials here. It provides enough gaping holes in character development, sub-plot lines, etc., that it begs for attention from a skilled bunch of interested persons to remedy these maladies. Maybe that was intentional on their part, but I doubt it...
Was it worth the $50+ and the hours invested? Probably not. Will I play it again? Probably not. I have a spot in the cupboard right beside KotOR2 where it will probably be laid to rest. That, and I doubt I buy anything else from Obsidian in the future....
I like Deekin -- although, I confess, when I first 'met' him in Undertide, I was majorly annoyed by him, but by HotU, he had grown on me and developed into a wonderful Henchie. I was relieved to see him -- although I wish they would have made his graphic more to the 'Deekin' that I recall, and not just a badly-illustrated kobold with no similarities.
Other than your personal comments regarding Deekin, Lurker, I agree with you. I, too, don't have a 'high-end' system, but I can play just about everything else on this 'old heap,' and without a problem. One of the first things I noticed about the game were the great similarities to KotOR2 graphics, of which I was never really plussed. Globs of color for hair, badly-defined features -- yes, almost an instant replay of KotOR2. (And, this was after 87 mg of patches...
) Overall, the main story/plot was a little better than average, although when it should have been the most interesting (the finalization of the build in Act III), the writing was hurried -- or non-existent, and in many places the story became as ill-defined as the attendant graphics. (As an example, their idea of a 'romance' was in reality a badly scripted one-night stand that happens in Act III -- not even a one-night stand, really, as it's interrupted by a call to arms, and you never hear a peep from your lover as to what happened, or didn't happen after that.) The intro to that 'romance' is really cheesy, also. Loosely translated, he (PC is a female fighter) says to her, "..We're going to war tomorrow and we don't know where we will end up, so let's get busy tonight!!"
After all the hype, I think most players expected more. But on the bright side, there are a cazillion opportunities to add mod materials here. It provides enough gaping holes in character development, sub-plot lines, etc., that it begs for attention from a skilled bunch of interested persons to remedy these maladies. Maybe that was intentional on their part, but I doubt it...
Was it worth the $50+ and the hours invested? Probably not. Will I play it again? Probably not. I have a spot in the cupboard right beside KotOR2 where it will probably be laid to rest. That, and I doubt I buy anything else from Obsidian in the future....
#286
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Posted 24 November 2006 - 05:00 PM
After all the hype, I think most players expected more. But on the bright side, there are a cazillion opportunities to add mod materials here. It provides enough gaping holes in character development, sub-plot lines, etc., that it begs for attention from a skilled bunch of interested persons to remedy these maladies. Maybe that was intentional on their part, but I doubt it...
Have you taken a look at the toolset provided?
It's even more of a mess than the NWN1 toolset.
If Oblivion programmers had to use the toolset provided to create the game it is little wonder they took so long but couldn't finish.
#287
MorningGlory
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- Member
- 796 posts
Posted 24 November 2006 - 06:32 PM
Have you taken a look at the toolset provided?
It's even more of a mess than the NWN1 toolset.
If Oblivion programmers had to use the toolset provided to create the game it is little wonder they took so long but couldn't finish.
I did look at the tool set. But, I didn't really know what I was looking at..
I just putter at the writing part of things and leave the genius of the mechanics to those more adept. But, if as you say, it's "..a mess..," then taken overall, I would guess the game is marginal. For the hype and the $$, that's a shame.. a real shame...
#288
Celestine
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- Modder
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- 4538 posts
Elven Maiden
Posted 24 November 2006 - 08:10 PM
I have a major problem with the game camera. Like Lucker says, the top down is the best but it really annoys me whenever I go into an interior and ended up looking at the roof, or pillar. Since my PC is slow, turning the camera angle is a pain.
I don't have much to say about characters development, I'm barely halfway in the game but strangely I find that I'm not overly excited about the game so far... which does say alot about how I feel about the game. I get addicted to a game if I really love it, in NWN2 case, its mostly 'meh'...
I don't have much to say about characters development, I'm barely halfway in the game but strangely I find that I'm not overly excited about the game so far... which does say alot about how I feel about the game. I get addicted to a game if I really love it, in NWN2 case, its mostly 'meh'...
#289
Archmage Silver
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- Member
- 6654 posts
Master of The Art
Posted 06 January 2007 - 06:44 PM
Just finished playing it... man, and did I like it? Hell yeah, it's one of the best RPGs I've ever played, everything was top-notch in my opinion (well, nobody can avoid some bugs, but meh). I got to play the game through with patch 1.03 though, that may have made it a bit more enjoyable too, not to mention that my new hardware can run it on full settings smoothly. Aside from those two things, I liked the overall feeling of the game better than anything in ages... and I'm definitely buying any expansions they release for it.
(Note: The poster is a hardcore RPG fan, opinions may be biased.)
(Note: The poster is a hardcore RPG fan, opinions may be biased.)
#290
berelinde
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- Modder
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- 4916 posts
Troublemaker
Posted 07 January 2007 - 06:16 AM
I can't run it. Video card won't take it, the rest of my system is barely up to specs, and I'm not able to upgrade right now.
"Imagination is given to man to console him for what he is not; a sense of humor, for what he is." - Oscar Wilde
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TolkienAcrossTheWater Forum
#291
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Posted 07 January 2007 - 06:52 PM
Wow, took longer to finish than I had thought.
This is a full review so be warned: there's spoilers aplenty!
*** SPOILER ALERT!! ***
Graphics:
I've already made my case about graphics in the last post. With the release of v1.03 the graphics are not much better. At low settings, the water and skies are still remnants of your OS desktop. There is still the issue of camera angles between areas. (Especially when entering the courtyard of Crossroad Keep.)
Plot:
The plot was decently excuted compared to the three modules of NWN1. There is a much less linear feel in the beginning, but it get more and more linear as one progresses in to the later Act II and most of Act III.
Creativity is rather limited, is it just me or are most plots of the NWN series based on "an ancient evil rising to consume all of Faerun"? (Creator Races in NWN1, Netherese Empire in SoU, and now the Illefarn Empire in NWN2) So cliché!
Character Development:
Obsidian combined the "influence factor" of SW:KotOR II with the stable base of a rigid alignment system which allows the characters to be both dynamic and multi-dimensional.
A good strategy, but ultimately not carried out to its full potential. There is practically no character development beyond Act I. (i.e. Elanee's dialog options doesn't even change after you slaughtered the members of her druid circle. It still remains "I'm not going to tell you about my circle because its secrets are mine alone." Casevir's charater is as flat as his face. )
Gameplay:
One of the major reasons why it took so long for me to finish the game: Bugs!!
There are:
- minor bugs in minor quests (i.e. adamantine powder does not exist even when there is a quest involving it)
- major bugs in minor quests, (i.e. Under certain conditions Guyven of the Road can be recruited but does not show up at Crossroad Keep)
- minor bugs in major quests (i.e. If you give all three components to Grobnar at the same time while he is in your party you won't be able to complete the construct.)
These are all okay. But when you have major bugs in major quests, that's when things get ugly.
The time-loop bug at Lord Tavorick's estate was what caused me to take more than a month to finish the game. (I waited for the v1.04 fix that just won't appear. )
I finally took matters into my own hands and killed Lord Tavorick myself.
Classes and leveling:
While most of the classes from NWN1 were well implemented to a certain degree:
- There is a major bug in the wizard spell casting classes (Wizard, Eldritch Knight, and Arcane Trickster) in which if you scribe all the spells except one for you caster level you will not be able to level up. (i.e. If you are level 5 and scribed all the 3rd level arcane spells except "Flame Arrow", you will not be able to level up to level 6 until you find and scribe "Flame Arrow", since the game forces you to choose either zero or two additional spells per arcane caster level)
The additional classes are not:
For example, the Neverwinter Nine prestige class which seems to only accomodate fighter class feats. Spellcasting levels for Neverwinter Nine isn't implemented.
Extras:
For those who pre-ordered and bought the limited edition, the joke's on you.
There are only 2 merchants who offer extra equipment (one for preordering, one for limited edition) all of which are basically useless.
After a good look at the construction set, I found it to be much more difficult to use than the NWN1 set. In fact most of the items and spell were directly taken from NWN1, (The same names and identifiers) thus the pitifully few additions of NWN2 stuck out a lot. The construction set itself is a mess, considering the disorganized listing of feats, items and spells.
Final thoughts:
From what I can determine in the construction set, the resulting product it is quite paultry in camparison to the initial ambition. It seems that quite a number of things were planned but unimplemented, including shield-bashing, epic feats, psionics, and mounted combat.
The tragedy is that it seems Obsidian really wants to give the gamers a lot for their money but ultimately the difference between what they can accomplish and what they want to accomplish is too great. And the final result is a mediocre work that is has many half-done features, loose-ends and unimplement devices.
Considering the quality of the initial release, the outlook for expansions doesn't seem bright.
This is a full review so be warned: there's spoilers aplenty!
*** SPOILER ALERT!! ***
Graphics:
I've already made my case about graphics in the last post. With the release of v1.03 the graphics are not much better. At low settings, the water and skies are still remnants of your OS desktop. There is still the issue of camera angles between areas. (Especially when entering the courtyard of Crossroad Keep.)
Plot:
The plot was decently excuted compared to the three modules of NWN1. There is a much less linear feel in the beginning, but it get more and more linear as one progresses in to the later Act II and most of Act III.
Creativity is rather limited, is it just me or are most plots of the NWN series based on "an ancient evil rising to consume all of Faerun"? (Creator Races in NWN1, Netherese Empire in SoU, and now the Illefarn Empire in NWN2) So cliché!
Character Development:
Obsidian combined the "influence factor" of SW:KotOR II with the stable base of a rigid alignment system which allows the characters to be both dynamic and multi-dimensional.
A good strategy, but ultimately not carried out to its full potential. There is practically no character development beyond Act I.
(i.e. Elanee's dialog options doesn't even change after you slaughtered the members of her druid circle. It still remains "I'm not going to tell you about my circle because its secrets are mine alone." Casevir's charater is as flat as his face. )Gameplay:
One of the major reasons why it took so long for me to finish the game: Bugs!!
There are:
- minor bugs in minor quests (i.e. adamantine powder does not exist even when there is a quest involving it)
- major bugs in minor quests, (i.e. Under certain conditions Guyven of the Road can be recruited but does not show up at Crossroad Keep)
- minor bugs in major quests (i.e. If you give all three components to Grobnar at the same time while he is in your party you won't be able to complete the construct.)
These are all okay. But when you have major bugs in major quests, that's when things get ugly.
The time-loop bug at Lord Tavorick's estate was what caused me to take more than a month to finish the game. (I waited for the v1.04 fix that just won't appear.
) I finally took matters into my own hands and killed Lord Tavorick myself.
Classes and leveling:
While most of the classes from NWN1 were well implemented to a certain degree:
- There is a major bug in the wizard spell casting classes (Wizard, Eldritch Knight, and Arcane Trickster) in which if you scribe all the spells except one for you caster level you will not be able to level up. (i.e. If you are level 5 and scribed all the 3rd level arcane spells except "Flame Arrow", you will not be able to level up to level 6 until you find and scribe "Flame Arrow", since the game forces you to choose either zero or two additional spells per arcane caster level)
The additional classes are not:
For example, the Neverwinter Nine prestige class which seems to only accomodate fighter class feats. Spellcasting levels for Neverwinter Nine isn't implemented.
Extras:
For those who pre-ordered and bought the limited edition, the joke's on you.
There are only 2 merchants who offer extra equipment (one for preordering, one for limited edition) all of which are basically useless.
After a good look at the construction set, I found it to be much more difficult to use than the NWN1 set. In fact most of the items and spell were directly taken from NWN1, (The same names and identifiers) thus the pitifully few additions of NWN2 stuck out a lot. The construction set itself is a mess, considering the disorganized listing of feats, items and spells.
Final thoughts:
From what I can determine in the construction set, the resulting product it is quite paultry in camparison to the initial ambition. It seems that quite a number of things were planned but unimplemented, including shield-bashing, epic feats, psionics, and mounted combat.
The tragedy is that it seems Obsidian really wants to give the gamers a lot for their money but ultimately the difference between what they can accomplish and what they want to accomplish is too great. And the final result is a mediocre work that is has many half-done features, loose-ends and unimplement devices.
Considering the quality of the initial release, the outlook for expansions doesn't seem bright.
#292
Grunker
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- Member
- 1240 posts
Prince Charming
Posted 07 January 2007 - 07:48 PM
To make a long story short: NWNII is the base of an insanely good RPG. The character-generation, the engine, everything is made to be a perfect RPG, except the insane system-requirements.
But all of this is worth nothing in an RPG if the story sucks, and although NWNII starts well enough, it ruins itself in cheap hack 'n' slash and crappy atmosphere.
But all of this is worth nothing in an RPG if the story sucks, and although NWNII starts well enough, it ruins itself in cheap hack 'n' slash and crappy atmosphere.
"I've heard people complain that the game [the new Prince of Persia] is too easy, which seems odd to me, since I died more times than The Nameless One in a smoothie-maker."
- Yahtzee
- Yahtzee
#293
Archmage Silver
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- Member
- 6654 posts
Master of The Art
Posted 07 January 2007 - 09:39 PM
I have to disagree with you, but the reason is pretty obvious: I tend to like every RPG I choose to play, if I'm initially interested in the game, it's quite probable that I'll like it. And I liked NWN2 as I liked NWN, and I'm speaking of the original campaigns here. I even like PoR: Ruins of Myth Drannor, and I simply don't feel them to be that bad... maybe I just get more out of them because of my imagination? Who knows.
#294
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Posted 07 January 2007 - 10:04 PM
I have to disagree with you, but the reason is pretty obvious: I tend to like every RPG I choose to play, if I'm initially interested in the game, it's quite probable that I'll like it. And I liked NWN2 as I liked NWN, and I'm speaking of the original campaigns here. I even like PoR: Ruins of Myth Drannor, and I simply don't feel them to be that bad... maybe I just get more out of them because of my imagination? Who knows.
How did you get pass (or bypass) the time-loop bug?
#295
MorningGlory
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- Member
- 796 posts
Posted 08 January 2007 - 05:42 AM
POSSIBLE SPOILER(S)
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I heard about that bug -- something about a cut scene looping an indeterminate number of times in Tavorick's (sp?) mansion? The whole thing came off as pretty much a normal hack 'n slash for me, and we were able to get down to the basement to the warded crypt with the loss of one soldier. But the old geezer keeled over and died there anyway, which was rather frustrating. I don't have a clue how I avoided the bug, or even if I did (some variation of it, maybe) but I did have the 1.03 patch. There's a sticky on Bioware's NWN2 spoiler's forum that addresses the issue. Doesn't give a workaround, but seems to point out what to avoid that triggers this bug. As for the rest of the game, I didn't find any one thing that totally shut down game play that wasn't oe.
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I heard about that bug -- something about a cut scene looping an indeterminate number of times in Tavorick's (sp?) mansion? The whole thing came off as pretty much a normal hack 'n slash for me, and we were able to get down to the basement to the warded crypt with the loss of one soldier. But the old geezer keeled over and died there anyway, which was rather frustrating. I don't have a clue how I avoided the bug, or even if I did (some variation of it, maybe) but I did have the 1.03 patch. There's a sticky on Bioware's NWN2 spoiler's forum that addresses the issue. Doesn't give a workaround, but seems to point out what to avoid that triggers this bug. As for the rest of the game, I didn't find any one thing that totally shut down game play that wasn't oe.
#296
Archmage Silver
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- Member
- 6654 posts
Master of The Art
Posted 08 January 2007 - 10:03 PM
I didn't even encounter it, I had the 1.03 patch like MorningGlory... never even lost a soldier in the fight.
I have to disagree with you, but the reason is pretty obvious: I tend to like every RPG I choose to play, if I'm initially interested in the game, it's quite probable that I'll like it. And I liked NWN2 as I liked NWN, and I'm speaking of the original campaigns here. I even like PoR: Ruins of Myth Drannor, and I simply don't feel them to be that bad... maybe I just get more out of them because of my imagination? Who knows.
How did you get pass (or bypass) the time-loop bug?
#297
Korbu
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- Member
- 22 posts
Posted 09 January 2007 - 02:50 AM
Probably I would buy it, but I would wait first to see what marks does it get in reviews.
I agree with u there
If u want to buy it online amazon has it and a world editor, 2 products
Monster Game
Korbu the Cruel, Korbu of Carpathia, Prince Davros Korbu Karnstein, Regent of The Sabbat
Korbu the Cruel, Korbu of Carpathia, Prince Davros Korbu Karnstein, Regent of The Sabbat
#298
MorningGlory
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- Member
- 796 posts
Posted 09 January 2007 - 06:23 AM
I didn't even encounter it, I had the 1.03 patch like MorningGlory... never even lost a soldier in the fight.
I have to disagree with you, but the reason is pretty obvious: I tend to like every RPG I choose to play, if I'm initially interested in the game, it's quite probable that I'll like it. And I liked NWN2 as I liked NWN, and I'm speaking of the original campaigns here. I even like PoR: Ruins of Myth Drannor, and I simply don't feel them to be that bad... maybe I just get more out of them because of my imagination? Who knows.
How did you get pass (or bypass) the time-loop bug?
Sure, ASM.. Rub it in.
No casualties.. *pffft*Anyway, iirc, it might actually be something in that patch that causes the problem. A bad area trigger maybe? Hopefully, they'll have it resolved by the time the next patch comes out. (Is 1.04 available yet? My 1.03 patch is still the beta and it works so I hate to tamper with it.. )
Edit: @BGHead - You might want to try to download the 1.03 patch and try running the game on lowest settings anyway. That patch makes a world of difference.
Edited by MorningGlory, 09 January 2007 - 06:27 AM.
#299
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Posted 09 January 2007 - 02:05 PM
I've also kept everyone alive with a diligent use of healing kits.
Everyone was still alive by the eighth time loop, when I got fed up and Alt-F4'ed the program.
I used final version of the v1.03 patch, which was why I waited a month for the 1.04 patch (it still hasn't come out yet ).
Of course, now that I have completed the game by killing Lord Tavorick before entering the crypt, there is really very little incentive to go through the game again since the plot is pretty much linear in Acts II and III.
Everyone was still alive by the eighth time loop, when I got fed up and Alt-F4'ed the program.
I used final version of the v1.03 patch, which was why I waited a month for the 1.04 patch (it still hasn't come out yet
). Of course, now that I have completed the game by killing Lord Tavorick before entering the crypt, there is really very little incentive to go through the game again since the plot is pretty much linear in Acts II and III.
#300
Archmage Silver
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- Member
- 6654 posts
Master of The Art
Posted 09 January 2007 - 07:48 PM
Heheheh... nobody got killed because I had two wizards with crazy empowered spells (Sand and my own character).
I didn't even encounter it, I had the 1.03 patch like MorningGlory... never even lost a soldier in the fight.
I have to disagree with you, but the reason is pretty obvious: I tend to like every RPG I choose to play, if I'm initially interested in the game, it's quite probable that I'll like it. And I liked NWN2 as I liked NWN, and I'm speaking of the original campaigns here. I even like PoR: Ruins of Myth Drannor, and I simply don't feel them to be that bad... maybe I just get more out of them because of my imagination? Who knows.
How did you get pass (or bypass) the time-loop bug?
Sure, ASM.. Rub it in.
Anyway, iirc, it might actually be something in that patch that causes the problem. A bad area trigger maybe? Hopefully, they'll have it resolved by the time the next patch comes out. (Is 1.04 available yet? My 1.03 patch is still the beta and it works so I hate to tamper with it.. )
Edit: @BGHead - You might want to try to download the 1.03 patch and try running the game on lowest settings anyway. That patch makes a world of difference.
