40 replies to this topic

[Kismet]

It's people time and effort you're ruthlessly putting on a scale, without even bothering to ask for permission first.

Ask permission?! Good lord, he shouldn't have to ask permission to give his opinion. It's up to modders to filter whatever feedback they get and see if it applies to them rather than censor the review ahead of time.

Once a mod is posted publically, it's available for any and all commentary as far as I'm concerned, regardless how much the modder slaved over it. And yes, I realize I'm opening myself to a whole lot of "Cailean is teh sux0r" once he gets released, but eh... that's life.

[SConrad]

It's people time and effort you're ruthlessly putting on a scale, without even bothering to ask for permission first.

Ask permission?! Good lord, he shouldn't have to ask permission to give his opinion. It's up to modders to filter whatever feedback they get and see if it applies to them rather than censor the review ahead of time.

Once a mod is posted publically, it's available for any and all commentary as far as I'm concerned, regardless how much the modder slaved over it. And yes, I realize I'm opening myself to a whole lot of "Cailean is teh sux0r" once he gets released, but eh... that's life.

Your Administrator has sadly decided to bring up this discussion on, and chosen to open up old wounds by taking discussions across forums once again. I would kindly ask that we instead take this discussion there, instead, since that's obviously what you want. Here's the link.

[Kismet]

Your Administrator has sadly decided to bring up this discussion on, and chosen to open up old wounds by taking discussions across forums once again. I would kindly ask that we instead take this discussion there, instead, since that's obviously what you want. Here's the link.

Well, seeing as he's banned here, I'm not sure how you expect him to post on this forum.

What I want is for players to be able to say what they want about a mod without people jumping down their throat saying "Well modder X spent a lot of time and effort on that mod and you should be appreciative and not say bad things about it." As far as I'm concerned, if you've put something out in the public eye then you should be able to deal with both good and bad feedback.

[SConrad]

Your Administrator has sadly decided to bring up this discussion on, and chosen to open up old wounds by taking discussions across forums once again. I would kindly ask that we instead take this discussion there, instead, since that's obviously what you want. Here's the link.

Well, seeing as he's banned here, I'm not sure how you expect him to post on this forum.

What I want is for players to be able to say what they want about a mod without people jumping down their throat saying "Well modder X spent a lot of time and effort on that mod and you should be appreciative and not say bad things about it." As far as I'm concerned, if you've put something out in the public eye then you should be able to deal with both good and bad feedback.

I've already replied to that argument over at PPG. I see no reason for having a discussion at two places. And since we all can access PPG without a problem, let's take it there, okay?

[Gabrielle]

Seeing that One Day NPCs got slammed, here's My Take on One Day NPCs Plus his grading scale is flawed.

[jester]

I agree with Rastor that basically it is good to have reviews to get an overview over what is available. The version problem could be attributed to time constraints, community fracture or availability at testing cut-off date.
If you put your review into a place I can actually post in () or the respective authors then the comments will make up for most of the shortcomings which were highlighted.. hopefully .

[Sillara]

I must concur with Bons. I myself would rate the various NPCs very differently; I have my own style of playing, and it is obviously different from Imrahil's. However, I appreciate his taking the time to play with the various NPCs I have released, and he has been quite good about posting the various things he finds at the appropriate forums. (I am involved with two of the NPCs he reviewed, as well as having private access to another, and I can say that he posted about the various flaws he mentioned in the NPCs' proper forums.)

Besides, how can anyone be upset with the Prince of Dol Amroth? :^^:

Sillara

[Kai of Candlekeep]

Although I can't say I completely agree with the way certain NPCs were rated, I have to say it's nice that *someone* out there takes the time to do a write up and review like this for the casual gamers who don't have a lot of game-time to test each NPC for themselves. Certainly makes the job of pre-planning a BG2 party a lot easier.

For the review author: Kudos for taking the time to put it together. Something of this size and magnitude must have taken a great deal of time and dedication, not to mention patience. So yes, I must credit you on a job well done.

However I must point out that the reviews are pretty subjective based on the author's personal tastes and playing style (as others have already pointed out) so the review really ought to be taken with a grain of salt. It's always better for people to formulate their own opinions based on their individual experiences. From personal experience I know there are some mods out there that I absolutely can't stand which other people consider a "staple." To each his/her own. So to the MODDARZ.... don't get too distraught about it. Say it with me: OPINION.

As far as the bugs encountered during testing, this really ought to be cross-checked with the known bugs for each mod (and respective version) because there are some bugs that cannot be replicated simply due to the fact that not everyone has the same combination of mods installed. Although I'm sure most of the mods currently released have been checked for compatibility issues, there is still the off-chance that bugs and errors are caused by user-error and/or engine instability. Now this is a general statement --- not necessarily the case here, but something to be considered nonetheless.

I'm somewhat of the opinion that reviews and critiques serve no real purpose aside from giving the reviewer a feeling of self-importance. (That's a personal opinion but since everyone is airing them out here, I thought I would follow suit, so...) If a particular mod piques their interest, any free-thinking individual ought go out and download it and see for themselves.

In the immortal words of Nethrin: "The mods are free; quit bitchin' already!"

Edited by Kai of Candlekeep, 04 January 2005 - 07:47 PM.

[Imrahil]

Wow. I must say I expected some disagreement, but not to this extent. First off, I'm going to apologize in advance for a bit of a combative tone in this post, but I hope it's at least a little understandable.

Second, I feel I must quote a couple of things from the review itself, as I believe some people's responses are a bit "superficial and look based on nothing more then a quick perusal through the" reviews, which apparently is a Bad Thing...

"Some I've taken all the way through the end of Throne of Bhaal, while some (a couple of the One Day NPC's) I just took along on several quests."

"I'm certainly open to comments & people disagreeing with my ratings (or posting their own in response) or pointing out things that I missed. It's all just my opinion, of course, & I'm bound to enjoy different aspects of a character than everyone else."

For clarity...

- the ones I only "just took along on several quests" are Hessa, Ny'Yber, Compton's Bruce, Covenant, & Goo. The rest I have in fact played a whole game with, sometimes multiple games.

Rather than quote specific posts, I'll just make some general comments, but if anyone feels I'm dodging their response, let me know & I'll respond specifically.

@ My Pet Peeve: yes, it's spelling errors - even Bioware had a couple, & I can excuse the occasional grammatical mistake (posts are cmopltely dffernt than MOD's, of course - jeez, I hope people got that joke), but the more there are, the more "unprofessional" it seems, In My Opinion

@ It's Just My Opinion - It's ALL Just My Opinion - see the above quote - I can freely like one NPC better than another & there's frankly nothing you can do about it - I like Jan better than Cernd but you don't see Bioware bitching at me about it - if you aren't ready for people to express their opinion on your work, don't release it

@ My "Bias" - in the "Top 9" (the "A"'s & "B"'s), there are 2 PPG, 2 CoM, 2 Weimer, 3 FW - if anything, I guess that shows a FW bias, although I don't know how much more balanced I could be

@ Seifer & my "attitude" - did you read what you wrote? I have a ton of respect for you, Seif - you are a MOD'ing icon (& you know I'm not sucking up) - how did you expect me to react to the idea that my effort was the result of an idle weekend's work of reading dialogue files? I'll fully accept that the Demon-spawning problem is an issue with my configuration if I'm the only one to report it - the biggest problem with the K-Z MOD For Me is the proof-reading (see My Pet Peeve), which is also why I can't stand to play the Nalia romance - heck, if you want, send me a text file & *I'll* proof-read it for you

@ You Are Not The Target Audience - I give feedback to NPC's I feel like giving feedback to, in the interest of improving the one's I particulary like - the MOD creators are NOT the target audience for a Review of the MOD NPC's - my "home" is Ironworks, which is all about answering questions, helping new players, & advising them on improving their game - it's not a MOD'ing forum & my reviews are intended as My Opinion on what they might enjoy

@ Post Your Own Opinions - My Take is just that: My Take. If you have a different view, or even just want to post "Imrahil is full of it, XYZ NPC is teh r0X0rs!!1!1!!one!!1!", go do it - nothing's stopping you from posting a counter-review

@I'm done - I'm done.

Again, if anyone feels like I'm dodging something, point it out to me & I'll respond.

- Imrahil

[Sillara]

I hope that this somewhat harsh experience does not deter from continuing to review NPCs. I, for one, found your reviews helpful as a player (occasionally I *do* get to play--occasionally! ), and as a modder I found your bug reports to be thorough and useful.

Sillara

[hlidskialf]

*Sighs* Neil or Hlid, would you be so kind to change my user name before I hurt and harassed someone in this diguise?

Done. I killed your secondary Ashara account to allow it. Cheers.

As for the rest of it... You have to put a few variables into the equation. The opinions are just that - opinions of an individual. No two people are going to see the same thing the same way. (Ever heard the same event recounted by different people? Never the same story - ever.) Another variable as mentioned is playing style. Add to that the sensitivity of author's for their own work, and the equalizer of these mods being freebies.
Enjoy playing in the sandbox people, but play nice 'eh? :thumb:

Edit: Oh, and kudos to Imrahil for taking the time to write the reviews. Constructive feed back is always welcome.

[SConrad]

As for the rest of it... You have to put a few variables into the equation. The opinions are just that - opinions of an individual. No two people are going to see the same thing the same way. (Ever heard the same event recounted by different people? Never the same story - ever.) Another variable as mentioned is playing style. Add to that the sensitivity of author's for their own work, and the equalizer of these mods being freebies.
Enjoy playing in the sandbox people, but play nice 'eh?  :thumb:

Exactly what I was *trying* to say with my initial post. Well said, hlid.

[NiGHTMARE]

I find it extremely hypocritical that certain people can criticize Imrahil for slagging off someone else's hard work, when in fact that's exactly what they're doing themselves..

[taza]

Attaches the "insane" label to Imrahil. (That's a compliment btw)

Anyone doing so much work about mods should be modding.

I would give Kelsey a "C" for personality myself, but otherwise the list seems good.

Or a D... Kelsey has no mental problems, therefore it's rather clear that he's not a Bioware NPC. A paranoid Kelsey would fit quite perfectly into the game, for example.

[Awake]

I'd like to say the black wyrm has a page for putting up comments on black wyrm mods(in case you didn't see the thread,Imrahil).
http://www.blackwyrmlair.net/quotes

[Andyr]

BW doesn't have any released NPC mods yet, though.