38 replies to this topic

[Deathsangel]

My answer is always: suffering.
Love makes you change your feeling to one person.
Hate might do so against several persons, but still...
One that obtains power does not change if this was his goal, if not a goal it usually doesn't change a man.
Time is but a thing that has no effect on a person itself, what happens during the time is important, but that is not this answer.
A desire comes from the wish to do something and as such does not change the nature of a man, but comes from the nature of a man.
Nothing is perhaps an answer if you trully believe that whatever happens in your life your karma/views of the world will stay the same. I doubt that possible.
Looking at TNO's story and what I quite trully believe I say: suffering. Though one can see this as merely a change of a man, with TNO his nature trully seems to change for his former wish becomes his curse. All desires turn around, this you hear when you talk to your former incarnations. Suffering can change your fundmental views on life. When things go wrong you tend to wish it were different and you strife to be different. The love of a loss one has such impact that if you wish that one to stay or events happen as you would have never expected it a a lot changes. The receiving of love might rather be underlining your ideas that your way is 'good' and is 'rewarded'. This is where I put the definition. Such a thing of course is subjective.
I hope I could convey my message well. As I am not a native english speaker it is kind of hard to put exactly my words there where my believes/heart lies.

[Rastor]

Talk about a resurrection!

[Deathsangel]

Talk about a resurrection!

When I do something, I do it right

A very poignant and insightful observation, Deathsangel. You conveyed it very well -- better than most EFL ppl would be able.

Thank you for the complement Guest. I really gave it quite an amount of thought when I met Ravel and as you may perceived at the time I thought of the answering I was also somewhat suffering. Can't compare to TNO ofcourse but still

[MorningGlory]

Talk about a resurrection!

When I do something, I do it right

A very poignant and insightful observation, Deathsangel. You conveyed it very well -- better than most EFL ppl would be able.

Thank you for the complement Guest. I really gave it quite an amount of thought when I met Ravel and as you may perceived at the time I thought of the answering I was also somewhat suffering. Can't compare to TNO ofcourse but still

I apologize, Deathsangel.. That was me who responded to your comment, and I didn't realize I wasn't logged in.

Yes, suffering -- indeed, great suffering -- can impact one's character. It is said that those things that do not break us can only make us stronger, but I don't think I can entirely agree with that. I have seen many become embittered and abandon all hope. Others find inspiration from somewhere to carry on. I guess it begs the question -- is it in the nature of 'man' to begin with? How he will react to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune?

To repeat myself, you present a poignant observation, but I am saddened that it has come from first-hand experience.

MG

[Deathsangel]

To repeat myself, you present a poignant observation, but I am saddened that it has come from first-hand experience.

MG

My live seems to be laiden with great grass green hills and untouched by a sunray valleys. I break and I rise, like a phoenix. However, before I get in to the (two major) sad periods of my life too much (and I start realling writing down to much half poetry) I reckon that untill someone can counter many of my arguments this states my view.

Edited by Deathsangel, 19 May 2006 - 01:43 PM.

[Deathsangel]

But is suffering (torment) the cause of change, or is the change the cause of suffering (torment)?
In Torment, the suffering of many characters are caused by a change in their nature (not the other way around):
- Dak'kon suffers because servitude is against the nature of the Githzerai and he is forced to serve as the Nameless One's slave.
- Nordom suffers because he has gone rogue, since chaos have disrupted his orderly nature.
- Fall-from-Grace suffers because she follows the way of a Deva instead of a succubus (close enough anyway ).
- Vhailor suffers because his nature of being dead defies his nature of enforcing the way of nature.
- Fjhull suffers because he as a baatezu is forced to perform good deeds.

In all these cases, suffering is a result of change not the cause.

I would like to turn it around once again

- Dak'kon suffers for he is divided and such suffers, then he becomes a slave and torment is increased
- In Nordom you actually give the right argument. He is gone rogue, that makes him suffer not before
- Fall-from-Grace suffers as she is Tana'ri among Baatezu IMO this makes her change her nature in order to survive and escape
- Think upon that Vhailor was alive and when he was so did work for justice. When TNO tricked him he became restless as such he became one with justice (or something alike). His suffering (the denial of justice) came before the change.
- Fjhull's nature is not really changed... he hates being good, so I do not think his nature changed

Waiting for the counter arguments

Even in real life, suffering is as much a result of a change as the cause of the change in a person's nature, adapting to changing environment is often unpleasant, for example:
- When your pet dies, you suffer because now your nature is suddenly changed to petless.
- When your phone dies, you suffer because now your nature has suddenly changed from barely social to non-social.
- When one of your household lights dies, you suffer because now your nature is to bump into things.

- That your pet dies does not change your nature (I reckon), for such a thing is life. You may be in sorrow, but still it does not change your nature. It can be that, for instance, you weren't there and such decide that you will stand by more, which changes your nature, but that is caused then by the suffering.
- a change in the nature of a man is in my eyes not related to the possiblity of contact or the (temporary) failure of material possessions
- the same as the above

It may be as I see this that your definition of the change of a nature of a man is different from mine

Edited by Deathsangel, 20 May 2006 - 01:23 AM.

[Tempest]

I believe there to be a difference between personality/mindset and a person's nature. I can be personable or antisocial, driven to succeed at any cost or leisurely, confident everything will work out in the end, but my fundamental nature will not change. Everything else can and will change, given the right impetus, but your nature will always remain the same.

[Katalism]

The nature of a single man can be changed, anyhow I figured most if not all of them where appropiate answers, but the one I chose was Pride or greed, not entirely sure

[iguana-on-a-stick]

Okay, another slight resurrection.

I do not doubt Death's angel's answer was the one intended by the writers. After all, "what can change the nature of a man" is the game's central question, and the game is called "torment."

Plus, I once found a hidden soundfile for Dak'kon where he says "what can change the nature of a man" followed by "Torment" three times with various degrees of emphasis.

I wonder if there are such soundfiles for the other NPCs?

Anyway, I like this answer. It would be mine.

[Tassadar88]

think that there are two arguments here- "what can change the nature of a man" and "what causes the suffering"

I remember the Good incarnation (the first one), saying in the fortress he´d commited terrible crimes, and wanted to change himself, atone for his crimes, but that the time he had until the end of his life would not suffice, which was why he attempted to become immortal. There you would have an example of regret being the motive for trying to change oneself. While I do not know if it really equals changing the nature of self, I always pick regret as my (and TNO´s) answer.

For the second question - in the Maze, Ravel looks at Annah and Fall from Grace and says that Grace´s suffering is of the strongest, for "When one turns on their own nature, many are the torments that arise from such a betrayal."
So it might be suggested that in the game, torment is the result of the change, as opposed to being the motive. With that said, I do not think that the reason of the NPC´s travelling with TNO is regret, but rather suffering, as supported by Fell saying that the Tattoo of Torment [...] draws other tormented souls to TNO like a lodestone

[Deathsangel]

Okay this is a resurrection (once again ), but the topic is still fifth in the row.

To what Tassadar88 says... I see regret as an element of suffering. If you have regret you suffer. If you suffer you need not have regret. I reckon I agree that regret can want you to change your nature, if it is strong enough.
Of course, not all regret or suffering makes this happen. After the regret you didn't by the chocolate cake yesterday or the regret you forgot someone's birthday does not change your nature.
Now depending upon your definition of the word 'suffering', it need not be as always fundamental change as well. I mean, if 'suffering' means a broken leg... well, for most people that won't change their nature. Now I wouldn't call that 'suffering', and within my subjective opinion lies also the nature of the game ().
After all, Ravel kills all that come before her to solve her puzzle. Regardless of what they say, because she cares for but one subjective opinion. That of TNO. In the end, it is true what all people say, as so says Ravel.
The answer to the question is:
I) subjective to your own views
II) definition of 'nature'
III) defintion of 'suffering/torment', for it seems that indeed many agree here that suffering (which, as I would state again is basis of regret)

Once again I let the topic slip back in to comforts of peaceful thoughts

Edited by Deathsangel, 10 October 2007 - 04:46 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I chose nothing, as I haven't played the that far.
But philosophically I would say, knowledge.

but first you need to understand or feel remorse...

And for that you'll need knowledge, as it is so much easier to destroy and condemn when you don't understand. Yes, that's from a song...

[Daulmakan]

I believe there's more than one answer. In fact, when Ravel asks you this very question, she'll only get upset at a 'I don't know' answer. Many things can change the nature of a man, as you see in your travels. The most notable one is indeed that of the Good Incarnation, as regret has changed his nature completely, but it's not the only reason.

[Discordia]

all of the possible answers are true, but none of them actually are. its the circumstances that change the nature of man as every action we take changes our being but every action we take is circumstencial (is that a word?)
or is that even an option...i dont remember that well anymore...

[Soulfire]

*ahem*

Spoilers, obviously.

---

NAMELESS ONE: ?If there is anything I have learned in my travels across the Planes, it is that many things may change the nature of a man. Whether regret, or love, or revenge or fear ? whatever you *believe* can change the nature of a man, can.?

THE TRANSCENDENT ONE: "THEN YOU LEARNED A FALSE LESSON, BROKEN ONE."

NAMELESS ONE: ?Have I? I?ve seen belief move cities, make men stave off death, and turn an evil?s hag heart half-circle. This entire Fortress has been constructed from belief. Belief damned a woman, whose heart clung to the hope that another loved her when he did not. Once, it made a man seek immortality and achieve it. And it has made a posturing spirit think it is something more than a part of me.?

[dONALD]

I answered regret. because in TNO's case it was regret that changed his nature. But I believe nothing can change the nature of a man, or the nature of humanity as a species in general.

Edited by dONALD, 03 December 2012 - 08:01 AM.