Hello all
Littiz responded to me on the original Gamebanshee thread, and I responded there, only later to realize he was suggesting I post my comments -here-, and luckily stumbled onto this thread. So, to save you all the trouble of following links, I'll repost my response here, and thanks for not flaming me! *grin*
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Littiz,
First off, in case you didn't realize it, I added to my comments regarding Refinements after the bit you quoted, to wit:
"Actually, I looked at it [Refinements] again mainly cause I was interested in SwashImoen, but after reviewing the HLA's again, I decided it wasn't as unbalanced as I thought. What won me over is that the non-pure-fighters no longer have Greater Whirlwind available, which is frankly what -all- of my fighters kept taking over and over in previous games, so if nothing else Refinements balances out that overpowered HLA. But for the record, I'm still registering my complaint that Undead Hunters are clearly gimped with this mod! *grumble whine ***** moan* Actually, it looks fun. Okay, NOW to Chateau Irenicus!"
I'm quoting that, in case you missed it, so that you know that I toned down my criticism quite a bit before anyone defended it So, overall, I've come to appreciate the Refinements mod's overall attention to balance quite a bit more, and that it's a well designed mod overall. That said, yes, I still think the Undead Hunter -specifically- got obsoleted as a result of all other paladins getting HLA's that basically obsolete the UH perks.
Since you've asked advice from me specifically on this matter, let me take a close look. Hmmm... [time passes].
Okay. The main problem on my initial review was that the Undead Hunter's prime perks are totally obsoleted by the HLA's "Exorcism" (blows away the UH's +3's against undead) and "Holy Purge" (obsoletes the UH's immunity to level drain by allowing them to easily get rid of the effect).
I should note at this point that I had come to hold the view, prior to evaluating all of this, that Inquisitors in unmodded
BG2 were a bit overpowered. I made that observation after having played both an Undead Hunter all the way through the game as my primary PC, and through my use of Keldorn as an
NPC in other games. Those dozens of uses every rest of an insta-cast and super-potent Dispel Magic and True Seeing are frankly -amazingly- valuable and already made that kit far superior to the other kits. I note with -approval- that you don't give Inquisitors access to Exorcism. Were it not for that, the Inquisitor would still be the no-brainer first choice, every time. I'd probably -still- choose an Inquisitor over the others, but at least you've given a reason to look at the other options, so hat tip on that one. In offering suggestions, I'm trying to keep this good balance you've added of making other options as attractive as the Inquisitor.
Now, it's still an issue that there's no good reason to play an Undead Hunter over a Cavalier or unkitted Paladin, all of whom get access to Exorcism and Holy Purge. In addition, the Cavalier's special HLA, Virtue, is pretty nice (permanent Charisma point and nice bonuses against CE opponents) whereas the UH's HLA just downright sucks ("Repulse Undead").
Why does it suck? Well, I'll tell ya, it's basically a "fear" effect, and "fear" effects are one of those effects that I simply avoid using at all costs. Why? #1, it sends the monsters running off into the distance into areas I haven't uncovered yet, often leading me to trigger additional combats I may want to deal with separately. #2, it's just annoying having to chase running critters down, and worse, sometimes mobs will actually run off the map, robbing me of their
xp and loot. #3, as far as applying it to undead, since all the clerics in game are either multi-classed or evil, their use of their turn undead ability is primarily going to result in either charming the undead... or "repulsing" them, so at best "Repulse Undead" is going to duplicate Aerie's turn undead ability, or even the UH's innate turn undead. Bleah.
Besides, it doesn't fit the UH theme. As an Undead Hunter, I don't want to make Undead run away, I want to kill them. Pushing them away seems kinda contrary to the notion that I'm -hunting- them, ya know? "Beware, evil hellspawn! I will relentlessly hunt you down, no matter where you hide, and once I have tracked you to your evil lair, I am going to... keep you away from me! Yaaaargh!" Just doesn't work.
So, now that I've complained, do I have a better suggestion? Actually, it's tough, and I can see why you fell into it. Exorcism, which gives insta-undead-kill ability to all Cavaliers and unkitted Paladins for one round, kinda makes anything else redundant as far as undead slaying goes. I guess I'd suggest replacing "Repulse Undead" with something like a Super-Exorcism, either making that ability last longer than 1 round for Undead Hunters, or with a bigger saving throw penalty. Or - better yet. Perhaps make it a passive ability that elevates the UH's turn-undead ability to that of a pure-class good cleric, or whatever it takes to actually give a decent chance of triggering the "destroy" effect while turning undead. Another suggestion, make it a "paralyze" effect instead of a "repulse" effect, powerful enough that it could even work on liches. Final suggestion - if possible, make them naturally immune to ALL abilities/spells cast by undead, down to the imprisonments cast by demiliches. Now that last one would be sweet, and would actually make me seriously consider playing one versus an Inquisitor. (Note that I'm saying "if possible" because I'm suggesting they be immune to those abilities -only when cast by undead-... for example, they'd still be able to be affected by imprisonment or other effects if cast by a living mage, but not if cast by a lich... I don't know if that's possible, but that would be required to not make them totally overpowered versus other classes like berzerkers).
Of course, I could also easily suggest nerfing Holy Purge and Exorcism, but that would bring the baying hounds of the ravening anti-any-nerf-for-any-reason-whatsoever purists down on my head (I still bear scars from suggesting that not every nerf ever done to players in Everquest were a bad idea), so I'll just keep my sanity and reputation and stay away from suggesting that whole idea. And besides, that would also result in making the Inquisitor a no-brainer again, and I like the fact that you made unkitted Pallies and Cavaliers competitive with them again.
Hope this helps. Great job otherwise, the closer I look at what you guys did the more I can tell you did pay close attention to balance and did a very good job overall, kudos!
EDIT: Ooooh, two more ideas... 1) in the spirit of my previous last suggestion, what about the ability to temporarily invoke the "scroll of protection from undead" ability to the undead hunter. 2) The ability to innately cast a high-level Sunray, or a similar anti-undead offensive spell, once per day per selection.
Qwinn
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P.S. I actually like SwashImoen, and from a roleplay perspective I actually likea that she's unable to use her abilities and is generally useless in Chateau Irenicus. It fits with the fact that she's continually complaining of headaches and is completely wigged out, basically. Yoshimo can do her job as far as thieving goes, although you are forced to set off two traps in order to be able to get to him, which is kinda annoying, but overall I do like the general idea and implementation.
Qwinn
