27 replies to this topic

[Wiskas]

I would like to know what is Manual of the Planes for 3ed compared to the Planescape setting for 2ed

[Stone Wolf]

3E has a book called Manual of the Planes for that. I just flipped through it, but it looks like a very condensed version of Planescape with some stuff missing. Like entire Planes missing.

[Archmage Silver]

I take that it isn't very good then.

[Stone Wolf]

Well, I didn't actually read the book. I just scanned through it and read a couple sections. From what I recall, they got rid of some (most?) of the Inner Planes. I think that was when I put the book down and walked away.

[Andyr]

The Manual of the Planes has a lot less background stuff than the Planescape setting, although it is still an in-depth look into the mechanics of the Planes itself. There's also a Planar Handbook for 3.5E which complements it, and has more information on races for example.

However, the Planescape setting was discontinued at the start of 3E, which is why I assume there is little background fluff in the MotP. If you want a Planescape game, I'd suggest the MotP and the Player's Handbook, and get hold of some old 2E source material to base your quests around. There's also a site called http://www.planewalker.com (I think) which is the, uh, most-official-unofficial Planescape page for 3E. I think they're working on some publications which should have all the other stuff you need.

Bear in mind that in 3E the Forgotten Realms cosmology changed and no longer matches the standard dnd/Planescape cosmology.

[Deathsangel]

Actually I have the book you are talking about and I am quite glad with it. The difference Planescape setting is that this book doesn't for example go in to to much details about the factions that are in Sigil. It gives a more common explanation and gives ideas for other planes and plane-settings. Like the Mirror-plane is new in 3e. I'm glad I have it, but it has it's pluses and minuses in comparison to the Planescape setting.

[Wiskas]

Do you have electronic version of MotP?
I would like to look at it before deciding how bad it is

[NiGHTMARE]

this book doesn't for example go in to to much details about the factions that are in Sigil.

IIRC this is because there no longer are any factions in Sigil - the Lady ended up forcing them to either renounce their faction, leave her city, or die.

[Stone Wolf]

Well, I've taken a look at a copy.

Most of the elemental Planes are gone. Now it's just the 4 basic elemental planes and the two energy planes. Both the quasi-elemental planes and the para-elemental planes are gone. It went from 18 Planes to 6.

They changed the way the planes are set up. Now the Astral leads to both the Inner and Outer Planes and the Ethereal and Shadow planes lead to demiplanes and other Prime worlds. Another pointless change.

From what I've read, it seems like a basic summary of stuff. I didn't see much on the Blood War, which is odd. They've also made the Yugoloths (the craftiest lower planar creatures and possibly the group controlling the Blood War) quite a bit dumber.

Oh, there's now a Plane of Faerie. :bash:

[oralpain]

They probably removed the blood war. It was not in any other edition besides AD&D 2E and alot of people didn't like it.

[Wiskas]

Blood War gone, factions gone, para/quasielemental gone
what will they remove next, Lady of Pain?
and what in the Nine Hells is plane of faerie

[Stone Wolf]

The blood war is mentioned, but not much info is given. Basically they just say that it's devils versus demons and leave it at that. Factions are given two sentences. Apparently they break down along the lines of traditional alignment.

My opinion after reading more of the book is that it's mainly good if you want 3E stats for creatures. Other than that, it's not very good. It's basically a brief summary of the basic setting info, with some pointless changes thrown in.

[NiGHTMARE]

Some of the factions are still around, they're just not in Sigil anymore. Though I believe a couple had their headquarters in the quasi or para elemental planes, which as Stone Wolf mentioned no longer exist in 3E...

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 09 December 2004 - 12:27 AM.

[Stone Wolf]

Para-Elementals still exist though, it's just that they're now homeless.

Hmmm, is there anywhere you can donate funds to homeless ooze elementals? It's not that I want to help them, really, it's just that I don't want them near me!

Edited by Stone Wolf, 09 December 2004 - 12:57 AM.

[Archmage Silver]

Heh... seems that they really did mess up with the planes!

Edited by Archmage Silver, 13 December 2004 - 02:21 AM.

[Stone Wolf]

Yup. They took my favorite setting and screwed it up. Then, they abandon it. Anyone still wondering why I prefer not to use 3E?

[Archmage Silver]

Heh, not anymore! Though there are some very interesting options in 3E, I prefer 2E. Just think about the ability scores! 2E has at least some sense in them, but 3E allows your average mage to have 22 int! That system is just crap.

[Stone Wolf]

Heh, getting a stat past 20 was huge in 2E. Now they have to give some creatures stats above 30 or maybe even 40 to make them special.

[Archmage Silver]

Ya. What fun is an half-orc pc with 30 strenght bashing enemy ogre with 'only' 20 str? But, I have to admit that 3E has it's good sides too, but the stats...

[Deathsangel]

Who... you guys looked to superficial in my eyes.

Sorry Stonewolf and Silvermage, but I do not agree.

The Fearie world is optional and an example of how you can create something. The paraelementals live in pockets. Let say for example a piece of the earth plane is on the fire plane, that is where magma elementals now live.

Quasi/Para-elementals still are there. Only not with there own homeplane if one does not want to make them. The elemental plane of cold is given as an example on how one can reset them in.

But Planescape is/was a setting. Just like Fearûn is a possible setting. In 3e you still have the Fearûn books, but they are rare. I thought I even saw a Planescape setting book.

Manual of the Planes does not equal the Planescape books! One can not cover everything in one book what used to be three if I remember correctly. Manual of the Planes is for one who wants to planeshift onto many planes coming from the prime. As to the fact that in Planescape Sigil in the concordant domains of the Outlands was your home base. Therefor a lot is not needed to tell. Once again I think I saw a more detailed book on Sigil.

Furthermore the factions still exist, only instead of I believe 42 there down to 15 or something, including The Bleak Cabal, Sensates, Xaosithects, Dustmen, Godsmen, Doomguard and several others.

3e is in comparison to 2e simplified. Because there was so much one could learn in 2e, people started to be come lost in details and rules. 3e is build more easily and gives options to add agian 2e things. A really great book for that would be Unearthed Arcana, which brings back the weapon groups (a mixture of 2e and 3e) and character flaws.

[edit] Sorry to say this to you Stonewolf and Silvermage, but you are talking somewhat rubbish. An orc has +4 to Strenght as an Ogre +8. An Orc does not become more powerfull than a ogre unless by magic, but it is now good comparing them if you don't give the ogre the same options. This also because the scale is different you don't have 18/00 anymore it goes up, in my eyes, more logical. Also the top line is anymore at 25, but is far beyond that. Fighter gods have strenghts in the 50.

Furthermore is it more strange to have fighters strengths based with an extra score instead of equal. If a rogue has 18 strength it should be the equal of an fighter with such a strength.

22 Int for a standard mage? Man where do you look? None of the standard races have +2 to Int and the max is 18 at the beginning. Increasing the stat naturally will take a mage to be level 16 untill he has 22 Int. Of course everything can be boosted by magic, but so it also is within 2e.

Weapon speeds was a good thing of 2e for example which is a shame that is gone, but you hack down 3e more than you guys should, cause it looks to me you just watched at it a bit and didn't read carefully enough.

Let me end with the fact that is of course and always will remain a manner of opinion what you think is best. However no flamewar is needed to be made out of this. Though I would want to ask to read somewhat more carefully the rules and texts in the book.

*to get to the real topic* No, Wiskas I do not have it digital. I have the book itself

The Deathsangel

Edited by Deathsangel, 20 December 2004 - 08:45 AM.