89 replies to this topic

[Rathwellin the Bard]

First I need to apologize.  I?ve been meaning to write this post for a long time ... but it has taken me far longer to actually *finish* my game than I thought it would.  In addition to all the normal real life stuff I?ve gotten back into PnP gaming and that?s eaten up a fair amount of the time I formerly devoted to playing BG.  Even now I have yet to do the Throne and face Ascension.  So in a day or three when I finally get to it I?ll probably post an update.

I decided way back when that I wanted to do two things.  I wanted to play though the entire series with one character again and I wanted to really test out the Refinements changes during the course of a ?real? game and not just some test scenario.

For my PC I chose Laedon, an Elf Sorcerer.  It was fun playing though the original saga with a Sorcerer using TuTu but I will not bore you with tons of detail here.  Suffice to say that simply by playing this way I chose some spells, like Sleep, that you usually don?t see in a ToB game.

In SoA I had planned on using a 6 man party with Jahiera, Minsc, Aerie, Yoshimo/Imoen, and the final slot to be a rotating one but usually filled by Valygar.  However I found that I accumulated enough gold for Spellhold prior to even *starting* my stronghold quest so I ended up doing chapters 3-5 using a 5 man party.  Even though I finally did start using that final party slot more I did most of chapter 6 and all of 7 with that same 5 member group.  This did have an impact on XP ... as I ended SoA with a fair amount more of it than I usually have and that meant that Refinements HLAs started showing up in chapter 6.

I didn?t find this terribly unbalancing as I had also installed a few mods such as Rogue Rebalancing with its Chosen of Cyric encounter (OMG!!!!) though I avoided most of the cheese that is Tactics (I included a few things like the Poison encounter to see how it stacked up in ToB vs Refinements changes).  Where I noticed it the most was the fight with Brodhi and the final battle with Jon.  Both were significantly easier than usual for me.  It was hard to tell if this was due more to the higher party XP level (probably the case with Brodhi) or some of the new HLAs (probably the case with Jon as I had just gotten Aura Cleansing before that battle).

I?ll interject here that I usually play on Core difficulty and that I?ve played several SoA games since I?ve trudged through the ToB storyline.  I?ve experimented with Tactics and really refined my fighting style since I?ve played ToB.  These two factors undoubtedly had an impact on my subsequent impressions.

Once I got to ToB I dispatched Illasera with ease and then invited Sarevok to travel with me.  After that I breezed though ToB, killing Grommy and then Yaga-Shura before taking on Watcher?s Keep.  After that I tried out Tactics Ritual (a snoozer at this level) and headed off to face Sendai, Abazigal, and then Balthazar.

I?ll be honest.  I?ve never had much trouble with the Illasera, Gromnir, Sendai, or Ravager battles, but the WK final seal Guardians, Draconis, and Improved Abazigal have always been hard for me in the past.  Not this time though.  The Guardians were toast in record time.  Draconis wasn?t bad at all, and Improved Abazigal wasn?t exactly easy but it was close.  

One of the major reasons for this was Refinements.

Let me switch gears for a moment.  I?m going to give a quick breakdown on my party, how I use the character, and what HLAs do and don?t do for me.

Laedon - In the past when I?ve played a non-Refinements ToB level Sorcerer I?ve chosen Timestop and Improved Alacrity at 18th level and followed up with Dragon?s Breath and Wish at 19th.  After that the game became easy.  Cast Time Stop, Cast IA, toss a few Dragon?s Breath spells and maybe a Horrid Wilting or two, the close with a Wish.  This was noticeably different at first with Refinements.  At 18th level I chose Chain Contingency and Inner Focus.  This is the first game I?ve ever played where I abused Chain Contingency.  I?ve been aware of the cheese before but never really needed with the old pre-refinements spells.  I?ve got to say that without Chain I probably wouldn?t have beaten the Chosen of Cyric encounter.  At 19th I got Time Stop and Casting by Intent ... though I almost never actually used Time Stop.  I just didn?t need to with the Chain Contingency cheese and my killer party.  At 20th level Wish and Spellcasting Speed Increase entered the picture followed by Aura Cleansing at 21st level.  Things really didn?t start breaking until level 24 though by which time I had all three Spellcasting Speed Increases.  With 3 of those and the dreaded Robe of Vecna Aura Cleansing became nuts.  In planning for this ability I had made sure that Laedon had at least one or more damaging spells at every level.  By 24th level it was insane.  I could bust out my entire spellbook 1st-8th level and just nuke my way though most encounters.  The *real* kicker was that I never had to use my 9th level spells so I was always free to Wish for all my spells back after or during nearly every battle.  Given 7 tries it?s not hard to do and if you don?t get your spells back over half the time you get a nice little party buff as a consolation.   This combo, Spellcasting Speed + the Robe + Aura Cleansing + Wish is as broken as it gets but it did make for some killer screenshots.  Other HLAs were mostly misses as I?ve yet to really need to use any of them.  You guys already know that I don?t like the elemental HLAs so I will not belabor the point.  Most of the others are interesting but just don?t ever actually get used since they are so overshadowed by AC.  Laedon has about 35% for both total kills and XP kill value for the game.  That?s about as high as I?ve ever gotten with a Sorcerer.  For what it?s worth Laedon holds the Staff of the Magi and his primary weapon is the Boomerang Dagger.  

Jahiera ? I?m a sucker for doing things ?right? so all of Jahiera?s early HLAs went up the fighter tree since she didn?t gain that 15th+ Druid level for a long time.  Refinements didn?t make big changes here.  I made good use of Critical Strike and Hardiness with here.  Jahiera is my ?meat shield? and secondary healer.  She has the best AC in the party, is nearly constantly Stoneskined, and her main job is to draw enemy attacks.  Any kill she gets early on is a bonus.  However her kill totals have gone up as her equipment has gotten better and she has gotten the Druid 7th level and HLA spells.  Nothing she does seems ridiculous or unbalanced to me so the Druid/Fighter HLAs get a thubs up.

Minsc ? For much of SoA Minsc was right up there with Laedon for kill stats.  He was the party?s melee enforcer.  Not long before ToB he graduated from Two Handed Swords to fighting with Flail and Axe and got even nastier.  However with Sarevok in the party and Jahiera improving his kill % went down quite a bit in ToB.  HLAs were good but didn?t feel significantly different from an unmodified game.  Like Jahiera his most commonly used HLAs were Critical Strike and Hardiness.

Sarevok ? Everyone knows what a monster this guy is.  In most ToB games I?ve played he is the first or second best in kill stats, but he barely earned those honors this time.  He was nearly even with Jahiera and Minsc.  HLA wise I used Greater Whirlwind the most with him since that maximizes the odds of one of his Deathbringer Assaults.  Refinements changes seemed fine here too.

Aerie ? I don?t really use Aerie well.  It?s just too hard keeping up with all her spells and Imoen?s and the PC?s.  So the poor elf had the worst stats of ToB.  Though she did make major contributions in several battles.  I was just a tad frustrated by her HLAs.  As a muticlass spellcaster it takes her a long while to get 7th level cleric slots and even longer for 9th level mage slots.  I chose Scribe Scrolls first but after that was pretty much winging it.  Cleric/Mages could really use another non-spell HLA or two.  I almost never actually used Scribe Scrolls either.  I tried it just for fun a time or two but it seemed just ?meh? to me.  I don?t think that it would hurt to let this HLA be picked multiple times.

Imoen ? I like Swash Imoen.  I really like Swash Imoen.  I had Imoen using buckler and the Firetooth Dagger (specialized) much of the game.  That gave her the party?s second best AC and a potent ranged attack to boot.  This change were very noticeable in the Underdark but became less so as the game progressed and Imoen relied more on her spells.  I ended up skipping out on Time Stop for the most part with her too, currently she has 3 Dragon?s Breath spells and 1 IA memorized.  On the rare occasions when Laedon has flubbed his Aura Cleansing for one reason or another Imoen had really been able to throw it down.  I really like the fact that she has access to Dragon?s Breath and my sorcerer does not.  It does help balance things out.  Overall the HLAs looked good for her as a pure Mage too.  One thing that I didn?t like was the color changes.  Blegh!

Balthazar ? Not really a party member (not yet anyway), but I finally tried the Refinements Balthazar battle one time last night.  It was hard to tell exactly what changed but one thing I noticed was that in the past Balthazar seemed to target my PC moreso than other party members.  This was always a problem given his Quivering Palm and other stuff.  Last night though he just seemed to melee with whomever was nearest.  That made thing *much* easier.  On the positive side he did manage to disrupt my sorcerer?s attempts to activate Aura Cleansing *twice* via that fireball thing he does.  I didn?t get it off until a third try (lol broken Wish combo) and even the massive Lower Magic Resistance / Horrid Wilting / Chain Lighting / other damage didn?t kill him though it got him to ?Near Death? and Jahiera was able to finish him off.  Overall this battle could use some additional improvements IMHO.

I haven?t been able to test a lot of the other changes.  No elemental princes.  No Sword Angle.  Etc.

One thing that I want to hammer home is that 9th level spells suck for the most part.  They are either cheesy (Chain Contingency, Time Stop, Shapechange, and Wish), not useful (Time Stop in major ToB fights and most of the others all the time).  Only Spellstrike really seems both useful and balanced to me.  Making the Sorcerer HLAs innates really highlighted this in game.  I just can?t get over how much these spells blow.

I want to close with a repetition that the Sorcerer is still largely broken with Refinements 1.3.  It?s not any one thing.  By themselves Aura Cleansing, Spellcasting Speed Increase, Wish, and the Robe of Vecna aren?t really that bad.  Powerful yes ... and maybe even a little cheesey in the case of wish but overall not that bad.  It?s only when you put all 4 of them together that madness ensues.  Even 3 of the 4 at one time are a bit over the top.  Take away the Robe and you still have the issue of major spell bangs followed by multiple Wishes and a rinse and repeat.

One quick and dirty suggestion I have for ?fixing? this is to make Wish a Mage only deal.  Either make it a HLA, part of the True Dweomer package, or just make it an unscribeable scroll.  Just do something so that Sorcerer?s aren?t getting 5+ of them in one sitting.

[Jinnai]

One quick and dirty suggestion I have for ?fixing? this is to make Wish a Mage only deal. Either make it a HLA, part of the True Dweomer package, or just make it an unscribeable scroll. Just do something so that Sorcerer?s aren?t getting 5+ of them in one sitting.

Both are bad really because they really take away from what wish is meant to be, a 9th level spell...not a true dweomer...the problem is there's no really hefty drawback to it, especially for someone with good stats.
Any wish, takes a massive toll, even limited wish (albeit not so much). As mentioned elsewhere, wish is overpowered. it was never suppose to be a spell of choice, but a backup trump card because its penalties were so massive.

But what would really help is perhaps for those enemies to use some of these new abilites, and use them smartly.

Edited by Jinnai, 01 December 2004 - 11:53 AM.

[Littiz]

Well, first, thx for the time you've invested in this report, it'll be useful for a few revisions in the upcoming V2

Where I noticed it the most was the fight with Brodhi and the final battle with Jon. Both were significantly easier than usual for me. It was hard to tell if this was due more to the higher party XP level (probably the case with Brodhi) or some of the new HLAs (probably the case with Jon as I had just gotten Aura Cleansing before that battle).

I?ll interject here that I usually play on Core difficulty and that I?ve played several SoA games since I?ve trudged through the ToB storyline. I?ve experimented with Tactics and really refined my fighting style since I?ve played ToB. These two factors undoubtedly had an impact on my subsequent impressions.

In my pre-refinements experience (I admit I haven't played a full game with it yet, just started a very, very slow game through TuTu), high XP rates are usually an issue here. And mostly, it's important if you have ToB installed from the beginning, or not. If your older games were played without ToB (were they?), it's natural you used to face greater challenges. Refinements or not, reaching HLAs in SoA is definitely something that *will* make the final stages of SoA easier.

I?ve experimented with Tactics and really refined my fighting style since I?ve played ToB. These two factors undoubtedly had an impact on my subsequent impressions.

Yes, please, allow me to emphatize this point.
Some of the fights that were difficult at the first runs through, are pieces of cake now. This, in a good part, is due to the knowledge gained by the player.

At 18th level I chose Chain Contingency and Inner Focus. This is the first game I?ve ever played where I abused Chain Contingency.

Chain Contingency is buggy.
It's not meant to work that way, and all know this. It's not meant to be cast with 0 casting time, and alas, this is a bug introduced by Bioware, which probably cannot be fixed.
But frankly it's not an issue for me, since I always cast it in rest-places, or out of fights at the very least, since this is how the spell is supposed to be used.
I understand you could cast it faster anyway with a sorc, but I repeat: Chain Contingency is not a spell meant for casting during actual battle situations.
It's the MOTHER of all the preparatory spells, so casting it right in battle is a "roleplaying abuse", other than a bug exploit.
I can't help you balancing your game if you're going to take advantage of bugs.
Refinements isn't responsible here, but even if it was, I have to say that ours is a mod that tries to emphatize the role-playing factor... so, to be used correctly, it'd need a bit of collaboration from the player. When I code, I assume the player won't abuse of the game's (or Refinements') bugs or weaknesses, I code in the hope players will use stuff trying to give more depth to their characters.

About the rest: I don't understand why you consider Aura Cleansing too powerful, after all sorcs used to have access to IA and my, *that* was poweful for them.
AC lasts only a thick, and a sorc can't even move while using it.
But, I admit you may have a point about Spellcasting Speed Increase... at start it was meant to simply replace IA, but since EVERYONE (you included, IIRC ) complained about the loss of IA, I tried to come up with a lesser version of it (Aura Cleansing, indeed, and I doubt I could find a better solution, frankly).

What about reducing the maximum number of picks of Speed Increase?

EDIT:
Balthazar isn't yet "refined".
We dropped the component since it wasn't in an useable state, yet

EDIT2:
I really hope you can wait a while and try a new game with V2, possibly with something other than a sorc, this time.
I'm really fond of what the monk and druid tables have become for instance, since those truly show what we mean by adding flavour, depth and role to the characters
Oh, I agree with Jinnai about Wish. It's not possible to remove it from the spell selection, in any case.

Edited by Littiz, 01 December 2004 - 12:15 PM.

[hlidskialf]

Why not refine the contingency spells to only function outside of combat then? There's a flag for that IIRC. It'd be quite decheesing for the PC.

[jester]

What requirement would a chain contingency have outside a battle? See roast? Helpless and drunk? Having naughty thoughts? I think a contingency is meant to kick in to protect you when there is no time to prepare. It is a battle spell so why not keep it as such. You can argue that the game is too easy even without refinements, but that would not be me as I like it the way it is.

I am still a bit confused by all the choices, but looking forward to V2 nevertheless.

[hlidskialf]

I've always thought Contingency was a pre-battle spell. There to protect you when you don't have time to react by casting a spell, not time to cast a spell that fires off 3 other spells. It's cheese to use it as a "3 for 1" spell in battle IMO, but it's also used that way due to a limitation of the game engine.
BTW, when I meant for non-battle situations, I meant the original casting or "loading" of the spell, not the "firing" of the spell. (Which is battle oriented, yes.)

[T.G.Maestro]

As Littiz said, much thanks for your detailed preview Rathwellin, it proves very useful!

mostly, it's important if you have ToB installed from the beginning, or not. If your older games were played without ToB (were they?), it's natural you used to face greater challenges. Refinements or not, reaching HLAs in SoA is definitely something that *will* make the final stages of SoA easier.

Exactly. For example Imrpved Irenicus was a pain without HLAs at that level, but with the same party with HLAs like G.Whirlwind, Assassination or Critical Strike he went down easily.

Why not refine the contingency spells to only function outside of combat then? There's a flag for that IIRC. It'd be quite decheesing for the PC.

Actually, this is a damn good idea Hlid. I'm not sure about the technical part of it, but if this is doable, we should definitely include it as a standalone correction (and later include it into the Spell Revisions component). Littiz, Bigg, what do you say?

What about reducing the maximum number of picks of Speed Increase?

Only over my cold, dead body . Nope, as I said before, I don't want to nerf our otherwise good additions because of a completely overpowered and unbalancing item (yes, I'm talking about the Robe of Vecna).

I?ll be honest. I?ve never had much trouble with the Illasera, Gromnir, Sendai, or Ravager battles, but the WK final seal Guardians, Draconis, and Improved Abazigal have always been hard for me in the past. Not this time though. The Guardians were toast in record time. Draconis wasn?t bad at all, and Improved Abazigal wasn?t exactly easy but it was close.

One of the major reasons for this was Refinements.

I have a possible solution for this "problem", but it will take time. As you well know, we are working on revisions for many encounters and creatures in the game, to get them to "Refinements-level". This won't mean adding weimeric cheese, no. We are talking about granting the opponents you face in ToB access to the same new abilities, increasing their difficulty level where possible with more intelligent scripts and tactics. Also, if we ever get there, we will restore many creatures in both SoA and ToB to their TRUE level - trust me, you'll need all the help you can get from the Refinements HLAs to face the upcoming "refined" Demons or Devils for example...

[the bigg]

As Littiz said, much thanks for your detailed preview Rathwellin, it proves very useful!

mostly, it's important if you have ToB installed from the beginning, or not. If your older games were played without ToB (were they?), it's natural you used to face greater challenges. Refinements or not, reaching HLAs in SoA is definitely something that *will* make the final stages of SoA easier.

Exactly. For example Imrpved Irenicus was a pain without HLAs at that level, but with the same party with HLAs like G.Whirlwind, Assassination or Critical Strike he went down easily.

Why not refine the contingency spells to only function outside of combat then? There's a flag for that IIRC. It'd be quite decheesing for the PC.

Actually, this is a damn good idea Hlid. I'm not sure about the technical part of it, but if this is doable, we should definitely include it as a standalone correction (and later include it into the Spell Revisions component). Littiz, Bigg, what do you say?

Nice, if it works... may also consider raising the casting time, if this resolves the pause & alac cheese (hit pause, click CC: you cast in pause mode; then, cast another ADHW, so you managed to cast 4 ADHW in a round.)

I?ll be honest. I?ve never had much trouble with the Illasera, Gromnir, Sendai, or Ravager battles, but the WK final seal Guardians, Draconis, and Improved Abazigal have always been hard for me in the past. Not this time though. The Guardians were toast in record time. Draconis wasn?t bad at all, and Improved Abazigal wasn?t exactly easy but it was close.

One of the major reasons for this was Refinements.

I have a possible solution for this "problem", but it will take time. As you well know, we are working on revisions for many encounters and creatures in the game, to get them to "Refinements-level". This won't mean adding weimeric cheese, no. We are talking about granting the opponents you face in ToB access to the same new abilities, increasing their difficulty level where possible with more intelligent scripts and tactics. Also, if we ever get there, we will restore many creatures in both SoA and ToB to their TRUE level - trust me, you'll need all the help you can get from the Refinements HLAs to face the upcoming "refined" Demons or Devils for example...

as above. if *ever* (I lost another time BG2 this week :stupid: and the second week from now I have 5 written tests, so the next week I study)

[Jinnai]

Only over my cold, dead body smile.gif . Nope, as I said before, I don't want to nerf our otherwise good additions because of a completely overpowered and unbalancing item (yes, I'm talking about the Robe of Vecna).

Then consider redoing the Robe?

[maximize]

What requirement would a chain contingency have outside a battle? See roast? Helpless and drunk? Having naughty thoughts? I think a contingency is meant to kick in to protect you when there is no time to prepare. It is a battle spell so why not keep it as such.

That is why it is called "Contingency." It's like a backup plan, something to do if your are being beaten to a pulp. If you changed it to only function outside of battle it wouldn't make any sense.

[Caedwyr]

I think there is a bit of confusion here. The request is to make Contingency only castable outside of battle (prior). The spell would still fire off during battle, just not be able to be abused as an instant casting method for some of the longer casting spells.

[jester]

Aaah thanks for pointing this out. i have never tried that. Silly old me.

/me runs off to contingency away for purely scientific purposes.

[Jinnai]

I think there is a bit of confusion here.  The request is to make Contingency only castable outside of battle (prior).  The spell would still fire off during battle, just not be able to be abused as an instant casting method for some of the longer casting spells.

Exactly...that along with adding the abiliities to eneimes as well would help.

But that still leaves the abuses with wish and its abused in the same manner as chain contingency because it has no real downsides, especially for those with the right stats, which it should have no matter what.

[Caedwyr]

@Jinna: You've probably noticed, but enemies already do this. In fact they tend to use lots of illegal Contingencies and Chain Contingencies. (Use spell immunities in a contingency, higher level spells than allowed, etc).

[maximize]

I think there is a bit of confusion here.  The request is to make Contingency only castable outside of battle (prior).  The spell would still fire off during battle, just not be able to be abused as an instant casting method for some of the longer casting spells.

Ahh, now it all makes perfect sense.

[fallen_demon]

@Jinna: You've probably noticed, but enemies already do this.  In fact they tend to use lots of illegal Contingencies and Chain Contingencies.  (Use spell immunities in a contingency, higher level spells than allowed, etc).

This is to simulate them having buffed before the battle.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

In my pre-refinements experience (I admit I haven't played a full game with it yet, just started a very, very slow game through TuTu), high XP rates are usually an issue here. And mostly, it's important if you have ToB installed from the beginning, or not. If your older games were played without ToB (were they?), it's natural you used to face greater challenges. Refinements or not, reaching HLAs in SoA is definitely something that *will* make the final stages of SoA easier.

Some of the fights that were difficult at the first runs through, are pieces of cake now. This, in a good part, is due to the knowledge gained by the player.

Just to be clear I've played SoA with ToB installed *many* times Littiz. Out of game knowledge wasn't a factor here.

I've played quite a number of ToB games but I usually get bored with the storyline and power levels about mid-way though. I've only mananged to make myself finish about 7 or 8 times prior to my current testing.

Chain Contingency is buggy.

I can't help you balancing your game if you're going to take advantage of bugs.

As for the Contignency abuse ... didn't you read that this was the first time that I ever exploited it.

Actually it seemed like a very natural transition from CC abuse to Aura Cleansing. Once I had AC I never needed to abuse CC. I think that there were maybe two or three fights were I did this.

Refinements isn't responsible here, but even if it was, I have to say that ours is a mod that tries to emphatize the role-playing factor... so, to be used correctly, it'd need a bit of collaboration from the player. When I code, I assume the player won't abuse of the game's (or Refinements') bugs or weaknesses, I code in the hope players will use stuff trying to give more depth to their characters.

Noble goals. Bad assumption. If it's abuseable someone will abuse it. I'm all for depth but IMO it's silly to add some abilites that are weak or unuseable and some that are godly. I alway hope that I can actually *use* an ability that my character has so that I can *Role Play* it in the game. If something is too weak by comparison or has too many penalties then it looses *Role Play* value no matter how cool or logical it is on paper.

About the rest: I don't understand why you consider Aura Cleansing too powerful, after all sorcs used to have access to IA and my, *that* was poweful for them.

As I said, by itself AC is great & balanced even. It's when you add Speed Increase, the Robe, and Wish that it gets out of hand. IMO you can't just balance this by itself ... you need to consider action chains too.

I really hope you can wait a while and try a new game with V2, possibly with something other than a sorc, this time.

Planning on it at some point. Probably a F/M multi if the talbes look interesting in v2. I keep meaning to try one out but always get sucked into trying another class. May also bring my Blade, Rathwellen, out of retirement.

Why not refine the contingency spells to only function outside of combat then? There's a flag for that IIRC. It'd be quite decheesing for the PC.

Sounds good to me, though as I note it actually was only really useful for a short amount of time & seemed to feel like a 'natural' way to progress to AC.

As Littiz said, much thanks for your detailed preview Rathwellin, it proves very useful!

glad to help!

What about reducing the maximum number of picks of Speed Increase?

Only over my cold, dead body . Nope, as I said before, I don't want to nerf our otherwise good additions because of a completely overpowered and unbalancing item (yes, I'm talking about the Robe of Vecna).

Next game I try the Mage will be getting the Robe not a Sorcerer. IMO Sorcerer without robe vs Mage with ought to be OK. However I will note above that you need to plan for folks having the robe on there sorcerers. It's a 'natural' choice for someone playing one even when not trying to optimize.

I have a possible solution for this "problem", but it will take time. As you well know, we are working on revisions for many encounters and creatures in the game, to get them to "Refinements-level". This won't mean adding weimeric cheese, no. We are talking about granting the opponents you face in ToB access to the same new abilities, increasing their difficulty level where possible with more intelligent scripts and tactics. Also, if we ever get there, we will restore many creatures in both SoA and ToB to their TRUE level - trust me, you'll need all the help you can get from the Refinements HLAs to face the upcoming "refined" Demons or Devils for example...

Thanks! It is needed IMO ... not that I don't like Refinements as is ... it's just that it would help balance. :thumbsup:

[Jinnai]

What about reducing the maximum number of picks of Speed Increase?

Only over my cold, dead body . Nope, as I said before, I don't want to nerf our otherwise good additions because of a completely overpowered and unbalancing item (yes, I'm talking about the Robe of Vecna).

As I said, by itself AC is great & balanced even. It's when you add Speed Increase, the Robe, and Wish that it gets out of hand. IMO you can't just balance this by itself ... you need to consider action chains too.

Next game I try the Mage will be getting the Robe not a Sorcerer. IMO Sorcerer without robe vs Mage with ought to be OK. However I will note above that you need to plan for folks having the robe on there sorcerers. It's a 'natural' choice for someone playing one even when not trying to optimize.

As i said before...its the robe that breaks it...something really should be done about that if your not willing to further limit speed increases

Edited by Jinnai, 06 December 2004 - 08:22 PM.

[jester]

Yes, but here you run into what Littiz suggested above: Player's own discretion. If there is no reason to balance anything (read make it unavailable for sorcerers in general which would be quite hard to defend), the player has to choose and spoil it for him/her or not.