13 replies to this topic

[toughluck]

(I'm not adding a poll, it would call for too many options)

Aside from the custom-tailored enemies (e.g. custom wizards, which would equal hundreds of even the most powerful creatures), which run-of-the-mill (which can have multiple copies) enemy from FR (or any other setting) do you find the most vile/difficult/dangerous/etc.

My vote goes to illithid. Definitely. Based on BG2, they are, in fact, the only kind of monsters that give me trouble even with uber parties. Even though my characters usually make the save versus domination, stun, or psionic blast, I'm still having trouble with mind flayers coming too close to someone and *slurp* sucking their brains out. For comparison, the Shadow Dragon, or Firkraag, didn't even manage to scratch me and *puff* they were gone. Alhoon and his cronies made me reload the game 5 times before finally being able to defeat them, and even the last time was a close call...
As a side note, mind flayers have plagued me ever since EoB2... Since there were no sourcebooks available here in Poland (back in early 1990s), I had no idea what kind of monster is that that is able to kill my party so effortlessly (even after being gamewizarded). Dran Draggore gave me less problems (it seems dragons always do, for some reason), but I had to hexedit a savegame to get past the illithid.
I've developed some sort of illithidophobia due to that, and their dungeons are the only kind that cause me to get a faster heartbeat. I swear, replaying BG2 made me skip a beat when I heard them cackling...
Enough of my musings, then...

So, what are your types?

[Atlasia]

Illithid. Though I've yet to see Illithid take on a substantially powerful Dragon. Or for that matter, the Draco-Lich (not entirely sure such a creature really exists in DnD, the GM had a skill for making monsters up on the fly) that a GM once used to kill of the party I played PnP with once.

[oralpain]

Firstly there are several non-unique creatures that can give even a skilled archmage trouble. Elminster, as powerful as he is would not enter combat with a greater/true fiend, or a mature dragon lightly.

Illithids are indeed fearsome, but in BG2 I never really had trouble with them, 5 hasted skeleton warriors tend to make short work of them. They are far more versitile in pnp, but less "cheap", if you know waht I mean. Illithids are generally no match for dragons.

Alhoon is not a singular individual (though every intelegent being is an individual, there are many alhoon), the alhoon are illithid liches.

Dracoliches are offical pnp creatures. Roughly the dragon equivalent of a lich, though they usually they are not directly responsible for their undead state as human liches are.

Dragons are some of the most dangerous creatures in the AD&D game, but in BG2 they have two phenominal weakness that the don't have in pnp, they cannot fly and they are too stupid.

In BG2 nearly all extra planar creatures are FAR weaker than thier pnp counter parts. Fiends in particualr get teh short straw. A Pit Fiend Baatezu culd easily have been up there with sarevok and irenicus as main villans, but instead they are just mediocre summons.

The demi-lich should not have even been in the game, its a serious disgrace to such a being.

My vote is split between fiends and illithids. Both tend to be brillant, alien, and terrifing.

Mind Flayer (Illithid)


CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any subterranean
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Community
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore (brains)
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: S, T,x(B)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 8+4
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2; see below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Mind blast, see below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Magical powers
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 90%
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Champion (15)+special
XP VALUE: 9,000 (7,000 for psionic version)

The illithid, or mind flayer, is an evil and feared creature of the Underdark; its powers are formidable and it feeds on the brains of any creature it encounters. Using arcane powers, it enslaves or destroys its foes, which include such powerful creatures as drow and kuo-toa.
Mind Flayers stand about 6 feet tall and have hideous mauve skin that glistens with slime. The head resembles an octopus, with white eyes (no pupils are evident) and four tentacles around its mouth, a round, many-toothed orifice like that of a lamprey. The creature has three reddish fingers and a thumb on each hand.
Illithids have infravision. They can communicate with any creatures via innate telepathy; they have no spoken language, although they often accompany their thoughts with hissing, and the eager lashing of their tentacles. Mind flayers dress in flowing robes, often with high, stiff collars, adorned with symbols of death and despair.

Combat: A mind flayer's preferred method of attack is the mind blast, projected in a cone 60 feet long, 5 feet wide at the mind flayer, and 20 feet wide at the opposite end. All within the cone must make a saving throw vs. wands or be stunned and unable to act for 3d4 rounds. The illithid tries to grab one or two stunned victims (requiring normal attack rolls if others try to prevent this) and escape with them.
The illithid keeps some victims as slaves and feeds on the brains of the others. When devouring the brain of a stunned victim, it inserts its tentacles into the victim's skull and draws out its brain, killing the victim in one round. A mind flayer can also use its tentacles in combat; it does so only when surprised or when attacking a single, unarmed victim. A tentacle which hits causes 2 hp damage and holds the victim. A tentacle does no damage while holding, and can be removed with a successful bend bars/lift gates roll. Once all four tentacles have attached to the victim, the mind flayer has found a path to the brain and kills the victim in one round. If preferred, the DM can simply roll 1d4 for the number of rounds required to kill a struggling victim.
A mind flayer can also use the following arcane powers, one per round, as a 7th-level mage: suggestion, charm person, charm monster, ESP, levitate, astral projection, and plane shift. All saving throws against these powers are made at a -4, due to the creature's mental prowess.
If an encounter is going against a mind flayer, it will immediately flee, seeking to save itself regardless of its treasure or its fellows.

Habitat/Society: Mind flayers hate sunlight and avoid it when possible. They live in underground cities of 200 to 2,000 illithids, plus at least two slaves per illithid. All the slaves are under the effects of a charm person or charm monster, and obey their illithid masters without question.
The center of a community is its elder-brain, a pool of briny fluid that contains the brains of the city's dead mind flayers. Due to the mental powers of illithids, the elder-brain is still sentient, and the telepathic union of its brains rules the community. The elder-brain has a telepathic range of 2 to 5 miles, depending on its age and size. It does not attack, but telepathically warns the mind flayers of the presence of thinking creatures, so a mind flayer within its telepathic radius can be surprised only by non-intelligent creatures. The range of the elder-brain determines the territory claimed and defended by the community, though raiding parties are sent far beyond this limit.
Mind flayers have no family structure. Their social activities include eating, communicating with the elder-brain, and debating on the best tactics to conquer the Underdark. For amusement, they inflict pain on their captives and force slaves to fight in gladiatorial games.
Mind flayers are arrogant, viewing all other species only as cattle to be fed upon. They prefer to eat the brains of thinking creatures.

Ecology: Mind flayers live about 125 years. They are warm-blooded amphibians, and spend the first 10 years of life as tadpoles, swimming in the elder-brain pool until they either die (which most do) or grow into adult illithids. On an irregular basis, adult illithids feed brains to the tadpoles, which do not molest the elder-brain. Illithids are hermaphroditic; each can produce one tadpole twice in its life.
Mind flayer ichor is an effective ingredient in a potion of ESP.


Psionic Illithids (these are supposedly what BG2 uses (though altered for the game), and what I prefer to use in pnp games)

Psionic flayers, considered the only true illithids by some (including themselves), have most of the same statistics and abilities as other mind flayers. Instead of magic-based abilities, however, theirs are purely psionic. Psionic mind flayers have a beak-like mouth and disdain the stiff-collared robes preferred by their cousins.

Psionics Summary:

Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs
10 4/5/15 EW, II/All =Int 1d100+250

Illithids use psionics for attack, mind control, and travel. All psionic illithids have at least the following powers:

Psychokinesis - Devotions: control body, levitation.
Psychometabolism - Sciences: body equilibrium (their only psychometabolic power).
Psychoportation - Sciences: probability travel, teleport. Devotions: astral projection.
Telepathy - Sciences: domination, mindlink. Devotions: awe, contact, ESP, ego whip, id insinuation, post-hypnotic suggestion.

Edited by oralpain, 22 November 2004 - 06:44 PM.

[Feanor]

Illithids are a real problem, indeed. Especially their draining Int attacks.

Edited by Feanor, 23 November 2004 - 02:12 AM.

[oralpain]

They arent in BG, and I don't think adding them would be possible, but Rot Grubs are always fun.

[Stone Wolf]

Rust monsters always made me freak out. Get away from my gear, damn you!

[Echon]

Rust monsters always made me freak out.  Get away from my gear, damn you! 

Heh, I was going to mention those.

-Echon

[toughluck]

I think next to dragons the beholder and their kin is the most formidable foe.

While the intelligence drain of the Illithids is powerful, it requires a successful melee attack, and most of their attacks are mind based so an archer with a high will save or immunity to enchantment will almost always prevail over an Illithid.

A beholder on the other hand, have ranged gazed attacks, and their varying attacks makes them much more dangerous. Not only does their Cause Serious Wounds function as potent ranged attack, they also can exploit different weaknesses of their opponents.
Charm/Sleep/Fear: Will save
Flesh to Stone/Disintegrate: Fortitude save

Thus a spell caster with a high will save will likely succumb to petrification, and a fighter with high fortitude save will be incapacitated.

Some beholder kins even have magic resistance, which makes them even more dangerous. Even without magic resistance, their gaze attacks are made so quickly that they will almost always cause a casting failure.

Beholders - true, dangerous they are, but they don't have any 'gruesome' attacks (unless cause wounds, or flesh to stone/disintegrate are considered such). This kind of threat is actually (usually) not considered 'dangerous' - true, they cause damage and are potentially fatal, but there are saves; there are hit points. You don't actually feel your characters feel any pain. How could they? Turning to stone means the character doesn't feel anything (same with disintegrate assuming it is instantenous). Cause wounds? Unless accompanied by pain, like that of literally ripping skin apart (I assume that is what happens), it doesn't leave a feeling of being sorry for the character. To think that could be very easily averted by adding a fortitude save against pain unless the character is berserking, or under influence of adrenaline rush. Failed save would mean the character would panic, be stunned, fall, or become unconscious. I know, that spell IS painful, like any other cause wounds spell, but you don't feel the overpowering feeling - that you can do nothing until it is your turn (or, in real time, that it is next to not possible to have a successful fight). That is the feeling that very few computer games can replicate. With me, it happened with X-COM game series (especially the first part and the chryssalid attack), a few other games, and yes, with ad&d crpgs that featured the illithid kin.

As for rust monsters, or those grubs - that kind of creatures definitely adds to empathy with the party. You know that they are endangered and you know you can do little to help them. That is the feeling you don't get - yes, your characters can get killed, but what would you do if you lost that carsomyr with no shop around? Would there be a way to resurrect it?

Oh, and the feeling of illithid deadly cunning (at least the potential for it) is somewhat lost in BG2. When you enter illithid tunnels, they are normal dungeons. Even though in the darkness of the underdark the illithid wait for their prey patiently, usually levitating, then ambush it and are usually successful. You don't have that feeling in BG2... Heck, Salvatore wasn't able to show that danger (dark elf trilogy), and if you felt the gravity of the situation, it was not through feeling, but through cognitive understanding of it.

[Feanor]

I think next to dragons the beholder and their kin is the most formidable foe.

While the intelligence drain of the Illithids is powerful, it requires a successful melee attack, and most of their attacks are mind based so an archer with a high will save or immunity to enchantment will almost always prevail over an Illithid.

A beholder on the other hand, have ranged gazed attacks, and their varying attacks makes them much more dangerous. Not only does their Cause Serious Wounds function as potent ranged attack, they also can exploit different weaknesses of their opponents.
Charm/Sleep/Fear: Will save
Flesh to Stone/Disintegrate: Fortitude save

Thus a spell caster with a high will save will likely succumb to petrification, and a fighter with high fortitude save will be incapacitated.

Some beholder kins even have magic resistance, which makes them even more dangerous. Even without magic resistance, their gaze attacks are made so quickly that they will almost always cause a casting failure.

Beholders are dangerous only if they are more than 2 and they can be weakened or even destroyed with area-effect spells, while illithids are immune to magic.

[Arachnos]

The Phaerimm or the Sharn...both rule

[oralpain]

Casue wounds is exceptionally painful, it is not only your skin being ripped apart, it is a necromantic attack that literally rots away your flesh in seconds.

I vastly prefer psionic Illithids. They are far more versitile and mysterious. They are the only ones I use.

An archer is of limited use in underdark caverns. Psionic illithids can also teleport. They will not be subject to ranged attacks for long, possibly not ever as they will use their slaves/bondy guards as shields.

    Beholders are dangerous only if they are more than 2 and they can be weakened or even destroyed with area-effect spells, while illithids are immune to magic.

A beholder facing you is immune to your magic in all likelyhood. Its anti-magic ray covers 140 yard-long, 90 degree arc in front of it.

Illithids are not immune to magic, they have a 90% magic resistance. This can be reduced through various magical and mundane means (in pnp).

An Illithid's brain eating attack is not effective against beholders.

Also, spells to not have to have a direct effect on a foe to be lethal. A fireball in an area of highly flamable materials can create man dangerous seconday fires, not to mention a server loss of avilble oxygen in an enclosed space. A disintegrate spell cast at the base of a large stalagtite or at a weak point in a cavern ceiling can be quite a potent attack against those standing under it. Magic resistance will not prevent you from being torn apart by summoned monsters.

It is not inevitability that players fear, it is uncertainty.

This is a very good point. Most of the creatures that have been listed so far are near certain death for low or mid level characters. Unless the creature goes out of its way to terrorise them, there will be no fear, only a quick death.

The trick is getting your players to know fear, while not presenting them with an overwhelmingly powerful foe. It's best to describe something, not just name it, unless the characters are very familar with it. Ambiguity can be very helpful.

This sort of ambiguity is very hard to recreate in a computer game where the creatures are already well know and obviously named. Not to mention controled by poor AI or simple scripts.

Edited by oralpain, 24 November 2004 - 06:26 AM.

[raptor]

Rust Monster.

Had a dwarf tuck hes dwarven waraxe +2 in hes pants and clubb a rustmonster to death in frenzied panic with a shortbow. I have never seen a player with more panic in hes eyes.