51 replies to this topic

[Andyr]

I think it would be more poignant if he still had to betray you, so took his own life.

[Sovran]

I think it would be more poignant if he still had to betray you, so took his own life.

Poignant, absolutely. In character for Yoshimo? Not so sure. Might be just me, though.

And, of course, I don't know what Kozakuran honour would demand.

[Gothic Rose]

I think it would be more poignant if he still had to betray you, so took his own life.

Poignant, absolutely. In character for Yoshimo? Not so sure. Might be just me, though.

And, of course, I don't know what Kozakuran honour would demand.

Kara-Turan honor. And that's the crux of this, really. I don't think Yoshimo was honorable - He was definitely NOT a Samurai. In Kara-Tur, he was probably a member of a thief's guild (Yeah, they have em too), and he was probably nothing more than a vicious bounty hunter. Certainly not evil, no. But not honorable, either.

Bounty Hunting has never been viewed as a particularly honorable profession. Lawmen don't like freelancers, criminals hate them, people fear them.

Plus, if Yoshimo had been honorable, and truly felt kinship with the party, then he would probably have committed Harikiri. But then, if he did that, then why betray Charname? He was AFRAID of dying. He wouldn't kill himself after ensuring his safety.

[fallen_demon]

That still doesn't answer my question of why he would get involved with someone knowing he was geased to kill them

[redchartreuse]

Kara-Turan honor. And that's the crux of this, really. I don't think Yoshimo was honorable - He was definitely NOT a Samurai. In Kara-Tur, he was probably a member of a thief's guild (Yeah, they have em too), and he was probably nothing more than a vicious bounty hunter. Certainly not evil, no. But not honorable, either.

Bounty Hunting has never been viewed as a particularly honorable profession. Lawmen don't like freelancers, criminals hate them, people fear them.

Plus, if Yoshimo had been honorable, and truly felt kinship with the party, then he would probably have committed Harikiri. But then, if he did that, then why betray Charname? He was AFRAID of dying. He wouldn't kill himself after ensuring his safety

Yoshi strikes me as having his own unique brand of "honor", really. Yes, he's fundamentally a survivalist. Perhaps even a bloody coward, given how many times he was the first to abandon ship during a failed morale check in battle.

He's not completely without a sense of Kara-Turan intregrity, though. His sense of duty towards family makes itself known when he mildly rebukes Anomen if he decides to let the courts deal with Sarrak, stating that he would not let a kinsman's death go unavenged. And he does seem to be truly bothered by his forced betrayal of the PC at Spellhold. If it wasn't for the geas, it is likely he might have mutinied against Jon.

That still doesn't answer my question of why he would get involved with someone knowing he was geased to kill them

Can we be certain that he was specifically geased to do so?

As for why he would get involved with Charname, his rational mind would probably be opposed it to. Unfortunately for him, the details of his little errand for Irenicus requires him to be very close to his target. He eats and sleeps with the rest of the party, they fight battles together, tend each other's wounds. He also has to take measures to "befriend" the PC to earn her trust and extract information from her. It's also natural that he may start to develop a grudging admiration for her as well as feelings of attachment.

[Sovran]

Kara-Turan honor.

OK, now I'm confused. I admit I know precious little about the setting, but I assumed Yoshimo was from Kozakura (as suggested in the first post, and as his name and vocabulary would seem to suggest.) Or have I got it all backwards? Sorry if my terminology is messed up. :)

And that's the crux of this, really.  I don't think Yoshimo was honorable - He was definitely NOT a Samurai.  In Kara-Tur, he was probably a member of a thief's guild (Yeah, they have em too), and he was probably nothing more than a vicious bounty hunter.  Certainly not evil, no.  But not honorable, either. 

Bounty Hunting has never been viewed as a particularly honorable profession.  Lawmen don't like freelancers, criminals hate them, people fear them. 

Plus, if Yoshimo had been honorable, and truly felt kinship with the party, then he would probably have committed Harikiri.  But then, if he did that, then why betray Charname?  He was AFRAID of dying.  He wouldn't kill himself after ensuring his safety.

I agree that he's no samurai, but... well, pretty much what redchartreuse said: his cultural background could (and apparently does) affect his personal sense of honour, and he could very well come to care about the people he travels with, even against his better judgment.

And yet there's this decidedly unheroic bent to him that I find appealingly realistic: he doesn't want to die. Imagine that. If not for the geas, and whatever compelled him to accept it, he probably would have made a point to try to stay on everyone's good side, and to avoid cementing any alliances.

Edited by Sovran, 08 December 2004 - 06:10 AM.

[Sleeta]

As for why he would get involved with Charname, his rational mind would probably be opposed it to. Unfortunately for him, the details of his little errand for Irenicus requires him to be very close to his target. He eats and sleeps with the rest of the party, they fight battles together, tend each other's wounds. He also has to take measures to "befriend" the PC to earn her trust and extract information from her. It's also natural that he may start to develop a grudging admiration for her as well as feelings of attachment.

What she said.

Like I said before, Yoshimo could probably rationalise getting close to CHARNAME by thinking of it as a means to an end; he's supposed to safely deliver her to Irenicus (one of the times he displays worry is when Renal Bloodscalp brings up the Mae'Var (sp?) quest, asking something along the lines of "You will not injure her/him, sire?" or some such thing), and by getting close to her, maybe even bedfellows, he could say he's doing it JUST to make sure she ends up where she's supposed to be. I suppose it's all how you interpet Yoshimo's character; would he really be willing to tear out someone's heart like that/keep up a facade of emotion when it isn't *really* necessary?

On the other hand, if you want a doomed romance, it could be revealed at Spellhold that Yoshimo really *was* only pretending to get closer to the PC, and have him die as usual. (After apologising for the deception, I think, because I believe Yoshimo was an unwilling traitor, not a heartless bastard.)

[Gothic Rose]

Kara-Turan honor.

OK, now I'm confused. I admit I know precious little about the setting, but I assumed Yoshimo was from Kozakura (as suggested in the first post, and as his name and vocabulary would seem to suggest.) Or have I got it all backwards? Sorry if my terminology is messed up.

And that's the crux of this, really.  I don't think Yoshimo was honorable - He was definitely NOT a Samurai.  In Kara-Tur, he was probably a member of a thief's guild (Yeah, they have em too), and he was probably nothing more than a vicious bounty hunter.  Certainly not evil, no.  But not honorable, either. 

Bounty Hunting has never been viewed as a particularly honorable profession.  Lawmen don't like freelancers, criminals hate them, people fear them. 

Plus, if Yoshimo had been honorable, and truly felt kinship with the party, then he would probably have committed Harikiri.  But then, if he did that, then why betray Charname?  He was AFRAID of dying.  He wouldn't kill himself after ensuring his safety.

I agree that he's no samurai, but... well, pretty much what redchartreuse said: his cultural background could (and apparently does) affect his personal sense of honour, and he could very well come to care about the people he travels with, even against his better judgment.

And yet there's this decidedly unheroic bent to him that I find appealingly realistic: he doesn't want to die. Imagine that. If not for the geas, and whatever compelled him to accept it, he probably would have made a point to try to stay on everyone's good side, and to avoid cementing any alliances.

Here's a brief primer on Toril -

Toril aka Aber-Toril (toh-RIL, AY-ber-toh-RIL)- This is the Planet.

Faerûn (fay-RUNE) - This is a continent of Toril, and the setting of Forgotten Realms. This is where Baldur's Gate is located. It is approximately Europe.

Zakhara (za-KAH-ruh) - This is a continent to the south of Faerun. It's the Al-Qadim setting, and is approximate to northern africa/the middle east.

Maztica (MAHZ-ti-ka) - This is a continent far to the west of Faerun, newly discovered. It is the Maztica setting, and is similar to Conquistador-style South America.

Kara-Tur (Kah-RAH - TUR) - This is the continent is joined with Faerun, but Kara-Tur is far to the east. It is the (old) Oriental Adventures setting, and incorporates elements of China and Japan.

Now then. Here are my thoughts on Yoshimo and how he actually feels towards Charname. I think that he did indeed grow fond of Charname in their travels. The betrayal hurt him deeply, but he is NOT a good person. Good people put others before themselves. Evil people put Themselves before Others. That's the big difference. Yoshimo does both - he helps people when he can, but doesn't sweat it when he cannot. But when it comes down to him dying or someone else, it's someone else who is gonna die. I think that, yes, he is something of a coward. But he's a REALISTIC coward. That's why I love him so much.

I would not doubt that he has some sort of personal code with which he lives by. However, remember that he is not lawful - so he won't necessarily adhere to it strictly.

[redchartreuse]

An idea of how he leaves and comes back. Bear with me it will be strange.
You join up with Yoshi in Jonnie's Dungeon. Once exiting you talk to Galean and perform your little quests. Romance goes and he begins to like you as a friend and slowly more, as you do more quests. After a while he decides going to Bodhi's guild is not the best option, and when offered he lets you know. You joi a guild and when finished with the quest prepare to go to Brynlaw. Upon reaching Brynlaw you have the little fight with Vamps, causing you to wonder a little about what Yoshi was talking about.

And things of course only get curiouser and curiouser when the party ventures into Perth the Adept's pad. Perth is the unstable mage whom the party has to kill to get the wardstone for the asylum and the book of infinite spells. Before you square off, Yoshimo seems to be quite fervent about trying to remind the mage why he shouldn't kill him. Something vaguely to the effect of "But...I am Yoshimo. You remember; Yoshimo? No, damn you!"

I'm surprised that the PC was not able to quiz the bounty hunter about this highly suspicious behaviour in the orginal exchange and I think a nice, calm "Yoshi... What the hell was THAT about?!" lover's exchange would be in order. Would be amusing to see how he tries to weasel his way out of that one.

After entering Spellhold you find Immie and learn that Yoshi betrayed you.   You are bottled up and all that fight through spellhold. You beat the crap out of Jonnie, for what he did, and he escapes. Yoshi comes you have an emotional dialogue but are still forced to kill him.

Even though this would probably be extremely anguishing for the lovers (particularly for Yoshi) this is probably more realistic than hari-kiri and we wouldn't have to edit out the lovely "No! No redemptions, no second chances" sound clip.

You go through the rest of the game and get to your pp. You talk to the fate spirit, or even the deva could do it, and they find a way to resurrect Yoshi.

Not unlike the Tsujatha resurrection? Could work. Or perhaps an item known as Yoshimo's Corpse could be coded in, and then CHARNAME could cart it off to the Temple of Amanautor.

You go to Suldenesslar, and Yoshi leaves you for a while trying to do something. You go to fight Jonnie and when his hitpoints reach 0 Yoshi walks up and backstabs him, finishing him, you all go to the nine hells and proceed. Yoshi already has a dialogue for nine hells .

I think Gothic Rose's idea of Kara-Turan guild business would be a good excuse for his absence.

And I like the backstabbing idea! :^^:

[Gothic Rose]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone that would actually want to work on this project?

I would probably be willing to help, especially with writing/dialogs. I can't code worth crud, though - I'm still learning.

[redchartreuse]

I'd love to work on the romance. Though my writing skills might leave something to be desired (I've never really worked on a mod before), I could help brainstorm and contribute ideas for lovetalks as well as correct grammar and spelling.

Sadly, coding is completely foreign to me.

[Blitz]

Uh, i'm not sure about your idea...

But Yoshimo has a heck dialogue? Wierd!!

[Gothic Rose]

I find one problem with the Kara-turan bunty hunters chasing him. How did they learn about it and travel there so quickly? Kara-Tura is several hundred, if not more, miles from amn, and would take several weeks to get there. Even if it took only four weeks that would be at least two months, one for the mesenger and one for the hunters chasing him. I would be in the Elven city by then.

Actually, Kara-Tur is Thousands of miles from Amn.

Real world map. Amn is Spain/Portugal. Kara-Tur is China/Japan/Vietnam/All other Asian Countries.

You have to cross the hordelands (Russia/Mongolia) several mountain ranges, so on so forth. It's possible, and faster, to sail.

But you forget one thing - Magic. Specifically, Teleport and Teleport Without Error. And runners aren't needed when you can easily scry on people.

[Atlasia]

Another idea could be that Yoshimo has 1 or 2 members of his guild trailing him. You could set it up so that he's screwed up at one point but was given a second chance, albeit being watched secretly by others (I'd prefer he be trailed by a Bounty Hunter and an Assassin) tasked with killing him if he does anything to jeopardize his current bounty (the PC).

[Sillara]

Oh please, please! Someone do a Yoshimo romance! I think that I have found the mod I will want more than any other in development! :^^: :^^: :^^:


Please, someone make this mod!!!

Sillara

[Gothic Rose]

Oh please, please!  Someone do a Yoshimo romance!  I think that I have found the mod I will want more than any other in development!  :^^:  :^^:  :^^:


Please, someone make this mod!!! 

Sillara

To make it, a coder must be found - so far, those who have volunteered know jack diddly about scripting - and ya can't make a mod like that, eh?

[nethrin]

Edit: Sillara forgot to log nethrin out.

Edited by nethrin, 16 December 2004 - 06:23 AM.