42 replies to this topic

[Shiva]

WE all love to add mods.

But some mods may make the game just too easy, or perhaps too difficult.

When I played BP, I had freedoms reign and other mods installed.

By the time i killed the shadow dragon i had a +5 mace of disruption and a whole thwack of other gear....

don't figure.....


So, my proposal is to have not just a compatiabliity list... but a balance list....
therefore, for those who like to play BP with a challenge, we can pick and choose what mods to install.....


I don't know what you guys think

[Stone Wolf]

It's fairly subjective, but it might be a good idea to let people know a little more about what they're installing.

[Pain Elemental]

I agree that some mods make the game pretty easy.

The first thing that pops in my mind is still the Ease Of Use. Infinite stacking and multiclass grand mastery in paticular

[jester]

When soloing infinite stacking can be a bliss, if you can live with the paradox of carrying stuff that way, but it should not be a game about inventory management, if you ask me. Multiclass GM is debatable.

[seanas]

as jester says, the game isn't about inventory management, so i don't really consider infinite stacking as making the game easier or harder. multi grand mastery (and most components of ease of use) aren't going to make BP harder or easier, either - they weill however break yr install.

as for making BP easier - anything that adds stores, items or spells is going to make BP easier to play. item upgrade, ruad, SP items, magnificent magic shop, exnem's items, FW items, dark ritual, FR/ROV and the planar sphere all spring to mind (as i have them all installed ) - although at least the planar sphere mod gives you a couple of realy hard battles, to somewhat counteract the benefit of the spells and the items.

the nerfs in the s_and_h patch (although *not* the sureblade nerf, which should really be described as a fix) also make the game easier (or less frustrating, depending upon yr point of view).

the st. cuthbert's mace you picked up after killing the shadow dragon is a basic part of BP, isn't it? or is that molytyr, which you get for killing the unseeing eye? at any rate, BP (or rather, its components) adds a whole heap of new items and spells, which definitely assist in completing the game - check out the weapon you get for completing NEJ, as an example... not much you can do about these items and spells though, except not use them ,as they're built into the game.

so if you want an even *greater* challenge, don't add any mods which add stores, items or spells. add those npcs that have tricky quests attached (kelsey, tashia, kiara/zaiya, sola, valen, some more i've probably forgotten) and play their quests through; and, because a number of the scripts in BP summon extra opponents depending upon yr difficulty level, turn the difficulty setting above 'core'.

[Sir BillyBob]

The Mace of Saint Cuthbert is from Reign of Freedom or Virtue (whichever it is). That little mod does add lots of high level items. As does the whole TDD mod. As a paladin, I think I had 3 +5 two-handed swords to pick from.

NeJ gives you a +4 two-handed sword but when you leave CI, you have the +2 Sword of Chaos. Why bother with a +2 sword? So the game balance issue is really up to you. Either drop what you don't want, sell it or don't pick it up in the first place. But don't run around SOA with an AC of -24 and complain that the game is too easy. What do you expect?

[T.G.Maestro]

May I ask a mod/admin to move this discussion toa amore "public" area, for example a general BG2 discussion forum? I think this topic is quite important, although the info in it can be more than subjective.

[Feanor]

Ease-of-Use, without any doubt.

[T.G.Maestro]

But to answer the starting question in this topic:

- Ease of Use,
- Solaufein,
- Valen,
- Item Upgrade,
- Freedom's Reign, Reign of Virtue,

and possibly others.

[Shiva]

Excellent!

Thank you very much!

[wellunhappy]

I?d just like to add that although I agree with T.G.Maestro?s list especially valen who is pure overkill, (a vampire that pretty much always strikes with a backstab every time, does kinda upset game balance somewhat) and the reign stuff, but I strongly disagree with the item upgrade. BP is a tough game and most of item upgrade items are only available after chapter 6, which is pretty much in keeping with game balance and when you need this kind of gear the most.

What good is Lilarcor in chapter 7 and beyond when most creatures require +3 or better to hit.

Item upgrade also combines many useless items, when I played BP before installing item upgrade I found myself swapping helms and rings every 5 minutes which becomes a bit tiresome after a while and surely a 15th level thief shouldn?t be wearing a poxy ring of danger sense.

Another fine example of item upgrade is Water's Talon +4 which combines, Water's Edge +3, Adjatha the Drinker +2, Rashad's Talon +2. What do you need with three swords anyway I?ve only got two hands, these swords usually end up in the adventurers mart cos indivually there sh*t at higher levels. Try taking Adjatha the Drinker +2 into watchers tower and see how far that gets you. :help:

Most mods come with a readme, if you don?t like it don?t install.

[Shiva]

I must concur with mr wellunhappy...about the item upgrades...
kinda nice to have regenerating rings of protection...

but as for the readme's....

that don't often tell you everything you need to know....and that's why its nice to have other players opinions.

[Radagast-The-Brown]

hmmm lets see from my experience in the game I can say :

Surely ALL item or spell mods make SURELY the game much easier...Item upgrade certainly does that as well...(Having characters with 2 rings of preservations +2-not counting as magical was JUST unfair).

Redemption is ok I'd say and should be tried with BP.

Ease Of Use - most components just improve things which have nothing to do with the difficulty...I only used some bugfixes, unlimited bag of holding and some unlimited stacking components (and of course the spell-trap animation fix).

Anyway the point is that the only GOOD mods to add without making it too easy are some NPC mods and some xtra quests mods.Certainly Valen and Sola are VERY powerful much more than an ordinary NPC upseting the balance.Especially Sola and his unbelievable gift from Ellistrae...Other NPC mods are ok.

PS : The truth and REAL problem is the A.I. of the monsters.Only once did I see in BG2 TRUE great artificial intelligence worthy of every player, and that was only when I saw tactics installed.And by this I DON"T mean the hardwired bp tactics...
Even by playing at hard difficulty, the enemies still sadly were maurons...
I don't want to insult anyone or their work but it seems that there is only one way to make BP difficult enough to be worth it for veteran players.
And this is to make tactics and improved battles compatible with BP...
I know this will probably not happen but as I see it...it is the only way...
At least someone must try making improved battles compatible...It's a must optional mod TRULY worth it for all who want a challenge-Tactics is even better...

[hlidskialf]

PS : The truth and REAL problem is the A.I. of the monsters.Only once did I see in BG2 TRUE great artificial intelligence worthy of every player, and that was only when I saw tactics installed.And by this I DON"T mean the hardwired bp tactics...
Even by playing at hard difficulty, the enemies still sadly were maurons...
I don't want to insult anyone or their work but it seems that there is only one way to make BP difficult enough to be worth it for veteran players.
And this is to make tactics and improved battles compatible with BP...
I know this will probably not happen but as I see it...it is the only way...
At least someone must try making improved battles compatible...It's a must optional mod TRULY worth it for all who want a challenge-Tactics is even better...

Tactics is not better AI. It is harder, but not better. The method of scripting uses a lot of "force" type options which can't be affected properly by the player's actions in-game. (ie. Cheating) Additionally, it doesn't use PnP abilities of these creatures. It just makes them harder to beat. BP uses REALISTIC actions (Realistic in the manner of PnP, not that dragons and magic are a real quantifiying effect!) No offence meant here Radagast, but from your various posts it's easy enough to see your a bit of a homicidal powergamer when you play! That does tend to up the XP quite a bit. In PnP this method would also be effective until a good DM managed to fix the problem. I consider myself to be somewhat of a veteran player, and when using a non-uber character I find the game quite challenging. Of course, a few tweaks here and a power character there, and the game's a breeze. If you're finding things too easy, I suggest you try playing a "mediocre" character and a true RP method. :thumb:

[Radagast-The-Brown]

Tactics is not better AI. It is harder, but not better. The method of scripting uses a lot of "force" type options which can't be affected properly by the player's actions in-game. (ie. Cheating) Additionally, it doesn't use PnP abilities of these creatures. It just makes them harder to beat. BP uses REALISTIC actions (Realistic in the manner of PnP, not that dragons and magic are a real quantifiying effect!) No offence meant here Radagast, but from your various posts it's easy enough to see your a bit of a homicidal powergamer when you play! That does tend to up the XP quite a bit. In PnP this method would also be effective until a good DM managed to fix the problem. I consider myself to be somewhat of a veteran player, and when using a non-uber character I find the game quite challenging. Of course, a few tweaks here and a power character there, and the game's a breeze. If you're finding things too easy, I suggest you try playing a "mediocre" character and a true RP method.  :thumb:

Ok there is "SOME" truth in your words and I know it...When I talk about bad A.I. though, I mean situations like the Demons attacking each other or other stuff which I have discussed in other threads. (check the Baatezu vs Tanarri thread for example). STILL my main character is just a simple necromancer and to tell you the truth the game is not easy because of her but from the whole party I have...anyway I don't consider "Tactics" as a cheating mod at all...besides all players cheat as I see it in some way at least...(I don't want to insult anyone but the human mind always finds hundreds of ways to have advantages over a pc A.I.) Thats why I LIKE making monsters harder even if they r "Unrealistic" as u say. Since in this game u do become so powerful so quickly I believe that the monsters will "never" be unrealistic enough...its not realistic when u exit a building to get avoid of the fight...
How come in a PnP game every single veteran player (no matter his lvl) is REALLY horrified at the idea of many trolls or in the idea of a lich or dragon or even a Tanar'ri or a Pit fiend (which is the most powerful baatezu-and REALLY easy in BP) and in BG2 all these die so easily, just a piece of cake, noone REALLY fears any of these in BG2...Tactics just make these and much more things to get their respect...which they deserve anyway...So don't tell me about PnP cause there is no REAL comparison....
Besides in PnP, a lich has spells of its own, can get teleported away with contingencies and wreak havoc with super-natural spells not to mention that u must destroy its phylactery else it reforms and finds the party soon to get his revenge....Just "Remember what PnP is"....Its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too far from a pc game still...." Bg2 has a looong way to reach PnP's true status...

Unless the xp taken drops or something bp will always be a breeze unless u get all the worse characters in the game.... With characters like Viconia, Edwin, Keldorn, Kachiko, npc mods and much more npcs in the game, it just becomes too easy...giving a better chance to the PC creatures to face the party just seems "ULTRA" fair to me...and to many more than me I am sure...

PS : what is a RP method?

[hlidskialf]

Ok there is "SOME" truth in your words and I know it...

Why thank you, how kind.

When I talk about bad A.I. though, I mean situations like the Demons attacking each other or other stuff which I have discussed in other threads. (check the Baatezu vs Tanarri thread for example).

That's also a matter of opinion. Yours differs from mine here.

STILL my main character is just a simple necromancer and to tell you the truth the game is not easy because of her but from the whole party I have...anyway I don't consider "Tactics" as a cheating mod at all...besides all players cheat as I see it in some way at least...(I don't want to insult anyone but the human mind always finds hundreds of ways to have advantages over a pc A.I.) Thats why I LIKE making monsters harder even if they r "Unrealistic" as u say. Since in this game u do become so powerful so quickly I believe that the monsters will "never" be unrealistic enough...its not realistic when u exit a building to get avoid of the fight...
How come in a PnP game every single veteran player (no matter his lvl) is REALLY horrified at the idea of many trolls or in the idea of a lich or dragon or even a Tanar'ri or a Pit fiend (which is the most powerful baatezu-and REALLY easy in BP) and in BG2 all these die so easily, just a piece of cake, noone REALLY fears any of these in BG2...Tactics just make these and much more things to get their respect...which they deserve anyway...So don't tell me about PnP cause there is no REAL comparison....
Besides in PnP, a lich has spells of its own, can get teleported away with contingencies and wreak havoc with super-natural spells not to mention that u must destroy its phylactery else it reforms and finds the party soon to get his revenge....Just "Remember what PnP is"....Its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too far from a pc game still...." Bg2 has a looong way to reach PnP's true status...

BP is an attempt to bring cRPG closer to PnP. Does it emulate it exactly? Of course not. However I, and at least one other, Horred, prefer the attempt of bringing it closer to PnP then just slapping thrice the HP and scripting illegal actions onto the opposition. You don't consider Tactics a "cheating" mod, fine. It IS one in regards to AD&D dogma, but it also accomplishes the increase in difficulty that so many others like yourself desire. It doesn't make it more or less valuable, just different. As for attempting to role-play the game, using cheese tactics like leaving the building when wanting to avoid the fight is NOT this method. Try to not use cheese, and you might find those battles a little tougher.
I'm not arguing against your playing method, not at all. There are plenty in your backyard on how they play. But this is not what BP attempts to do. We might not be true to PnP, but we do our best. It's better IMO, than tossing that out the window and powergaming.

PS : what is a RP method?

Role Play method. By playing in character rather than what's expedient or profitable. It makes quite a difference.

[Chevalier]

Do any of you use restraint? In CtB there is a hastened sword that gives anyone who can use it 10 hits per round. A really cool sword, but I didn't use it. If it just double your hits I might have used it. Get a super weapon, just don't use it.

[Sir BillyBob]

Horred already dropped the XP of each creature you meet. This was to slow down the fast pace players were advancing. He also reduced the XP for learning spells and removing traps. Play BGT without BP (you can advance to level 4 before going into the Nashkel mines just by removing all the traps and locks around Beregost. So the BP game is adjusted better than a normal SOA game.

I have used a few forcespell scripts for my enemies and I am not always thrilled with the idea of the enemy "cheating" like that. No level 7 wizard should be able to cast 5 sets of magic missles. Same with some of the tactics scripts. Why can't I get my gnome to move that fast or hit every time he swings a staff? It is unrealistic.

[NiGHTMARE]

Surely ALL item or spell mods make SURELY the game much easier...Item upgrade certainly does that as well...(Having characters with 2 rings of preservations +2-not counting as magical was JUST unfair).

I assume you mean all current item/spell mods, rather than all possible item/spell mods. I mean, a mod which adds a bunch of +1 items to ToB would hardly be making the game easier .