38 replies to this topic

[Andyr]

I was looking at the PfE spell yesterday, actually, and it is different in BGII and IWD. The BGII version, which is more correct, only affects Evil foes, yes. So PfG should only be against Good creatures. I'm pretty sure the version Cam made for Cleric Remix only works against Good.

[Jinnai]

I might suggest to rather have all the polar opposite abilities as the paladin; e.g. withering touch instead of lay on hands (like a touch attack that does 2 points of damage per level), Summon Fallen Deva rather than Summon Deva, etc.

This idea has merit, though I cannot say I ever loved the idea of Blackguards being the negative opposites of paladins. Sure, they must have the strict differences, but I think a bit more freedom can make this kit really unique and entertaining. And thats what we aim for here
But if you look carefully, I'm positive you can spot several of those so called opposites here:
- opposite Turn Undead (hmm, is it possible to assign an Evil Turn Undead ability to a paladin kit?);
- Aura of Despair (paladins get Holy Aura as a HLa in Refinements. NOTE that these auras are REAL auras: they are permanent, and keep affecting the surrounding every round or so! To be honest, I always wondered how people can call "Aura" an ability that is simply cast, affect a few creatures, and thats it... )
- Detect Good;
- Contagion (Lay on Hands);
- Fiendish Ally (Summon Deva);
and so on.

Personally those should belong to something better called a "Dark Paladin" ie LE version of a paladin. They have high degree of honor, respect, loyalty and would not be foul. In many respects they would mirror a paladin, FE they also adhore theivery, cowardice, breaking an oath or promise, they show respect to their enimies, even if they are their most hated nemisis, etc. They are people of faith, albeit, a faith of LE.

Of course a few such as portection from good and detect good would still be good and appropriate for a blackguard, but the contagion wouldn't (although i'm not sure it would be appropriate for a dark paladin either).

Edited by Jinnai, 27 October 2004 - 01:08 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Wouldn't it equal a +2 AC bonus and saving throws toward attacks from good aligned opponents?

It would be nice if fallen paladins had the option of taking this kit. I'm not sure if that could even be coded though.

A brilliant idea Caveman, a brilliant idea... :thumb:

I was looking at the PfE spell yesterday, actually, and it is different in BGII and IWD. The BGII version, which is more correct, only affects Evil foes, yes. So PfG should only be against Good creatures.  I'm pretty sure the version Cam made for Cleric Remix only works against Good.

Of course, it works against the creature/alignment/etc. type you set in the opcode. You could easily make it a Protection from Law or Protection from True Neutral ability...

portection from good and detect good would still be good and appropriate for a blackguard, but the contagion wouldn't

This is pure 3rdE pnp and crpg.

[Andyr]

TGM: You say you want to make it a Paladin kit. How do you propose to avoid Falling?

[CamDawg]

I was looking at the PfE spell yesterday, actually, and it is different in BGII and IWD. The BGII version, which is more correct, only affects Evil foes, yes. So PfG should only be against Good creatures. I'm pretty sure the version Cam made for Cleric Remix only works against Good.

Yep, only vs good. And similar to how PfE works against demons, I added protection against Solars for PfG.

[T.G.Maestro]

Yep, only vs good. And similar to how PfE works against demons, I added protection against Solars for PfG.

Hmm, you meant Celestials, not Solars, right?

TGM: You say you want to make it a Paladin kit. How do you propose to avoid Falling?

I haven't looked into that matter till now, so frankly, I don't know. We'll be able to tell more once we start to work on the kit.

[Caedwyr]

No, Cam would have meant the RACE SOLAR which is the racial tag used for Devas and Planetars.

[T.G.Maestro]

No, Cam would have meant the RACE SOLAR which is the racial tag used for Devas and Planetars.

There are other racial tags like Planetar for example too

[CamDawg]

It is just solars atm, but TGM's right--it should cover planetars as well. But that raises another inconsistency--PfE covers summoned demons, but not bogstandard demons, whereas there are no such differentiations (summoned vs not) for celestials until I start dicking around with the IDS files.

[Littiz]

TGM: You say you want to make it a Paladin kit. How do you propose to avoid Falling?

I sense this is slightly retoric

I don't know how much hard-coded the issue is here.
Anyway, probably the best option would be to use a Fighter slot again.
Also it would be a bit awkard to have a devil like this one coded as a paladin
Of course this would mean losing the Turn Undead button, though.

EDIT: but probably it is really necessary, otherwise this guy would also learn some clearical spells at a point

Edited by Littiz, 30 October 2004 - 01:44 AM.

[the bigg]

TGM: You say you want to make it a Paladin kit. How do you propose to avoid Falling?

I sense this is slightly retoric

I don't know how much hard-coded the issue is here.

Fallen Paladins are hardcoded, and get to follow clabpa05.2da (you can use this only if you need any script though to check the kit, I fear). Also, you need to start as a pallie, and then lower your reputation by killing innocents.

Anyway, probably the best option would be to use a Fighter slot again.
Also it would be a bit awkard to have a devil like this one coded as a paladin 
Of course this would mean losing the Turn Undead button, though.

Add a special ability that summons an invis & unkillable evil rat cleric of right level (you need to create a lot of rats Littiz ), and have him True() THEN Turn() in his script. Maybe make the ability 1 per day every 2 or three levels, and then as an HLA make it infinite (Lesser Werewolf HLA - like). At the HLA level, maybe the rat will also cast some kind of evil spell (Blasphemy maybe? It's level 7, but it's very weak after all)

EDIT: but probably it is really necessary, otherwise this guy would also learn some clearical spells at a point 

Hide the "cast spell" button, like good ol' Inquisitor.

[T.G.Maestro]

Anyway, probably the best option would be to use a Fighter slot again

In that case we should take care of the control of the fighter THACO bonuses and such. It is vital for this kit to use the paladin progression, unless it becomes very unbalanced. Restricting this kit to spcialization in weapons is a poor choice to balance it, at least without other downsides compared to pure fighters.

[Andyr]

I am trying to make mine a proper Paladin (I want the spells) though am having problems with the Falling - there are a couple of unfortunate issues surrounding it.

[T.G.Maestro]

Could you be a bit more specific about the "unfortunate issues" Andy?

[Andyr]

When using RegainPaladinHood after a Fall:

1. It resets Reputation to 10 every time.
2. Kit abilities are regained on the RegainPaladinHood, so even if you've used your allocations of Poison Weapon or whatever for the day, you'll get it back again.

[T.G.Maestro]

Good to know, thanks for the info.

[Andyr]

Also any kit using the Paladin class will Turn Undead rather than Command Undead; even if the character is Evil.

[Littiz]

Also any kit using the Paladin class will Turn Undead rather than Command Undead; even if the character is Evil.

Ehe, read this TGM, CassandraLittiz strikes again
When the BG2 engine has the option between acting logically or inconsistently, it often goes for the second

Thx Andyr
Since we're not really interested in spells, we should go for the fighter kit, it should result much cleaner given all these issues. Of course, we will implement something to interact with the Virtue mod, as we did for the Sword Angel..

[Andyr]

When the BG2 engine has the option between acting logically or inconsistently, it often goes for the second 

Indeed it seems so.

Thx Andyr
Since we're not really interested in spells, we should go for the fighter kit, it should result much cleaner given all these issues. Of course, we will implement something to interact with the Virtue mod, as we did for the Sword Angel..

I'm going to persevere and try and use the Paladin as a base class, so good luck and if you should happen to meander across something helpful on your travels I'm sure you know how to find me!