12 replies to this topic

[Jinnai]

This is an offshoot of a discussion from Why Imoen should be romanceable thread.

As Quitch has mentioned, the pc can interact with Imoen in a variety of ways, namely: friendship, love, hatred and indifferance. I have mentioned that I thought Quitch mentioned another important one: as a tool.

Using one as a tool doesn't require like or dislike of any degree. In fact, unlike twisting someone, a certain amount of like usueally ends up happening (people tend to like tools that are useful to them), howver no matter what you always see her as a tool.

Imoen as Quitch mentioned would likely start out helping the PC, but become jaded over time and leave. This is true if the PC isn't good at their mantipulation (likely because of a low charisma), howver a masterful PC can learn to use imoen without doing much twisting, the only thing being is that the PC is still worth following orders of.

The thing is how would you maintain your hold on imoen as she becomes jaded or even keep her from becoming jaded? Obviosuly Imoen isn't a puppet and will react to you, just as any character will. A master manipulator however could likely keep this up for some time by rewarding imoen's successes, pretending to get closer to her (and look geniunely interested in what she says and does), making it so that she likes you. You would make it seem like you are inseprrable while giving her hints and stuff as to what you want, in essense you are playing a one-on-one of "The Great Game" or "The Game of Houses" with her.

Yes this is i suppose twisting her presonality, but it is not nessarily toward good or evil, just toward your goal.

[Quitch]

I presume you're thinking more along the lines of getting Imoen to do X, which Imoen believes you want done because of Y, but really it's because of Z.

[Jinnai]

I presume you're thinking more along the lines of getting Imoen to do X, which Imoen believes you want done because of Y, but really it's because of Z.

Well that is one possiblity (leaving out that people know Z is not to pervert Imoen's personality), but it could be that Y is the intended result or that Y is only part of the picture, the part you want imoen to see and understand.
The bottom line is that you would be a calculating and charismatic person with no real concern how imoen developes outside of doing X, even if she realizies the reason isn't Y, but Z.
Of course if she does find out it is Z, she may not do X and that would require damage control which is why i say this would only work with a charismatic person.

Edited by Jinnai, 27 October 2004 - 01:23 PM.

[Quitch]

I presume you're thinking more along the lines of getting Imoen to do X, which Imoen believes you want done because of Y, but really it's because of Z.

Well that is one possiblity (leaving out that people know Z is not to pervert Imoen's personality), but it could be that Y is the intended result or that Y is only part of the picture, the part you want imoen to see and understand.
The bottom line is that you would be a calculating and charismatic person with no real concern how imoen developes outside of doing X, even if she realizies the reason isn't Y, but Z.
Of course if she does find out it is Z, she may not do X and that would require damage control which is why i say this would only work with a charismatic person.

What did you have in mind exactly?

[Jinnai]

Something our friend does a lot in our tabletop rpgs.

He will get other people to go into the potentially dangerous areas ahead while he stays behind. He will give info he has, and will aid them from, albeit from afar, but he tries to get the others to do the more dangrous work. He won't force the issue though, so if you see through it, he won't make you go in front.

Edited by Jinnai, 02 November 2004 - 05:54 AM.

[Quitch]

Something our friend does a lot in our tabletop rpgs.

He will get other people to go into the potentially dangerous areas ahead while he stays behind. He will give info he has, and will aid them from, albeit from afar, but he tries to get the others to do the more dangrous work. He won't force the issue though, so if you see through it, he won't make you go in front.

But in BG2 the player is god over the party in all but dialogue. Their worldly actions are, to a point, yours to control regardless.

[Jinnai]

But in BG2 the player is god over the party in all but dialogue.  Their worldly actions are, to a point, yours to control regardless.

True, where and how you move is up to you (unless your activating the AI, but even then you can overrule it), however, there are tons of situatins where special dialogues are initiated, some even describing actions or adding/subtracting items, that have to deal with the party.

[Ismail]

Hmm... I don't think this tool-issue would be as serious as you all think. If you were indifferent towards Imoen and just use her abilities (speaking in IC terms here), she might be pissed off, but I don't think she'd leave, unless you have her do something that SERIOUSLY conflicts her morals (I dunno, kill children or something). She's not stupid by a long shot and she knows hanging around with you is her best chance of survival. Well, she probably COULD round up her own gang and probably would be quite successful, too (assuming she gets decent allies), but still... you're a kick-ass <insert class here> the most powerful Bhaalspawn on Toril!

So the just-a-mage-in-your-gang wouldn't be quite as tragic, I think. Disappointing for her? Probably. Reason to beat it? Probably not. excepting POSSIBLY the time between killing Bodhi and Irenicus.

[Quitch]

But in BG2 the player is god over the party in all but dialogue.  Their worldly actions are, to a point, yours to control regardless.

True, where and how you move is up to you (unless your activating the AI, but even then you can overrule it), however, there are tons of situatins where special dialogues are initiated, some even describing actions or adding/subtracting items, that have to deal with the party.

Gve me a specific example.

[Asynca]

The idea of manipulating Imoen makes me very sad As does the idea of being dishonest or dishonestly coersive with her. Anyway...

Whether you're good or evil, you should know the best way to get people to do exactly what you want is to be at least civil to them. Indulge them, don't tell them exactly what you think of them.

Judging by the in-game dialogues (and i'm not sure because I've only tried this for a few of them) no matter how nasty you are to her she appears not to notice. The only time she leaves the party is if you start hacking up the commoners and children. So, she probably won't leave the part if you're indifferent or nasty to her alone.

However, she's bright, and IMHO she definitely does notice.


Perhaps her disappointment at being ignored or forgotton or snapped at could build up over a number of exchanges and lead to a confrontation? Or maybe, thinking of the way she normally likes to deal with issues that are very heavy, she might crack a joke that has undercurrents of how upset she is.

CHARNAME: Get lost, brat!
Imoen: Whoops, silly me. I guess it's the kennel for me, tonight. Or... since we're in the graveyard, perhaps you'd prefer if I just hopped into one of the holes...

Hmmm. Possibly a little more sinister than that.... but you get my drift.


EDIT: Hmmm, my spelling leaves MUCH to be desired....

Edited by Asynca, 01 December 2004 - 12:56 AM.

[Jinnai]

But in BG2 the player is god over the party in all but dialogue.  Their worldly actions are, to a point, yours to control regardless.

True, where and how you move is up to you (unless your activating the AI, but even then you can overrule it), however, there are tons of situatins where special dialogues are initiated, some even describing actions or adding/subtracting items, that have to deal with the party.

Gve me a specific example.

Most of the examples that come to mind are from dialogues I or others did in the BG1NPC Project. Basically stuff like trying to take something from imoen, by force, by persuasion, by trickery, (by strath if a rogue), or simply giving up. Others might be how you handle in-battle situations like Imoen complaining she's badly injured and what you say and how you say it.

A lot of the stuff i did for imoen wouldn't be appropriate here though because its for a BG1 imoen, not a BG2 imoen.

[Jinnai]

The idea of manipulating Imoen makes me very sad  As does the idea of being dishonest or dishonestly coersive with her. Anyway...

Whether you're good or evil, you should know the best way to get people to do exactly what you want is to be at least civil to them. Indulge them, don't tell them exactly what you think of them.

That's what i'm talking about....your trying to persuade imoen to do what you want, not by being indifferent to her, but by pretending to like her, but at the same time attempting to inflience her actions subtely.