33 replies to this topic

[Awake]

thanks St0n3d vv01f

i'm having a little bit of trouble w/ the intro, so nobody download the uploaded version yet. i wasn't thinking and uploaded it before i tested it. for some reason it just keeps you in the cell and you stay in the cell, and you don't leave the *$*#ing cell.

[Awake]

alright, the samurai kit has a small update, it can now be lawful good, lawful neutral, or lawful evil. that's it.

special abilities will come soon

[Awake]

update:

Now when you start the game, immy will come out of the room w/ the golem, and walk over to you and say

"I'm joining the party!"
then she's in your party.

i can't figure out how to get her to just appear right outside the cell though. she's not listed in the are file

the site and the readme don't say that yet, i'll have to update it

Edited by Awake, 02 October 2004 - 10:30 AM.

[Awake]

alright, i updated the sight but not the readme(but who cares, no one reads those..... ). the Samurai Kit is now getting major updates. these will hopefully make it much more interesting. a thread for the updates is here at blackwyrm. or you can read what i'm copying to here, which won't be as clean to read.

Awake asked me to post this critique in public so here it is. Any comments on balance/feasability issues are very welcome.

All quotes are taken from the description of the Kit on Icelus' site.

- Kabuki


QUOTE 

Samurai: The Samurai is a rare fighter in the realms. They have spent their lives training for combat in the path of righteous. Samurai's have studied combat wearing heavy armor and using two katanas simultaneously. A samurai is wise and intelligent, unlike the average thick-headed fighter. If some action is needed, as long as it serves the greater good, the samurai will take it.






Ok, here is my first problem. Samurai weren't righteous, we like to think of them as a bunch of good guys who meditated on the path of the warrior... in reality they were a bunch of people who lived the path of the warrior. Those who survived meditated, and alot of them were scum. They also never wore heavy armor. The traditional samurai armour is of laquered wood, and weighs about 15-20 kg. Being wise and intelligent helps, although I think intelligence is more important than wisdom... since most of them didn't pick up that trait until it was much to late. What I just said was 80% reality. If you want to hammer out a 80% fantasy version I can help you with that, but I recommend taking a look at l5r.alderac.com and maybe looking at their stuff. They have a lot of stuff for 3E D&D that can give you some pointers.



QUOTE 


Advantages:
- A plus 1 to THAC0 for every three levels
- Receives a plus 4 to movement rate
- May Meditate once per day for every 10 levels starting at level 1 with one use.
- Meditation gives the samurai a plus 2 to AC and an extra half attack per round.





The Thac0 + is probably too strong. Compare with Kensai and Swashbuckler... 1/5 levels still makes them 20% better than anyone else. It is appropriate however, and in theme.

+ to movement rate... It's neither here nor there. In comparison with westerners they would be short, so movement rate would actually be lower. Also long torsos vs. shorter legs (they never had a lunge move in their swordfighting until Europeans showed it, as it is dependent on the length of your legs rather than length of your arms). I'd switch it for:

L7 Defensive Harmony 1/day - The tactical ability of the samurai can be communicated to the rest of the party.
L15 Defensive Harmony 2/day
L21 Immune to Backstab


- Meditation is an awkward name, as it requires time... and time is usually not available to a party in the context of the game and would seem a bit silly. How about calling it "focus"/"blade focus" or something along those lines.



QUOTE 


Disadvantages:
- Due to the abscence from absolute meditation, the samurai receives a minus 2 to AC at level 19.
- May not gain any proficiency in Sword and Shield fighting style.
- May not use ranged or piercing weapons with any proficiency, excluding the spear.





Needs the following disad: May not use armour heavier than studded leather. (Maybe allow chain... but even that is pushing it).

Ok... I took a break and thought about this for a while. Here is what I came up with. Scrap your existing disadvantages, they don't really fit in theme with a dedicated follower of the path of the warrior. They sort of just make it another Kensai. So lets try this:

Your initial weapon proficiency slots must be the following:
Katana
Ninja-to/Scimitar/Wakisashi
Halberd
Spear
Longbow
Two-Handed Sword

This is historically representative of what a samurai *had* to learn. Two-Handed sword = No Dachi/2 handed Katana
Halberd = various asian polearms

With this disadvantage you can now mabe give an advantage: 1 extra proficiency slot which the player can choose to put anywhere (or it can be popped into staffs or two weapon style).

This disadvantage of course recognizes the Samurai's dedication to the way of the warrior and that a saumrai before level 9 is not considered experienced enough to chose the weapon that he will dedicate his life to. Also of course there is the risk of loosing (disarm/theft) and breaking yoru weapon and therefore you should be able to pick up any weapon you find on the battlefield and use it. On this note: Miyamoto Musashi fought duels with barrel staves, oars, fence posts and generally anything he could get his hands on... and he still won.

Disadvantage #3 (we keep the armour restriction from above):
Cannot dual class (same reasoning as above), and prevents any cheesy stuff a la Kensage...

Disadvantage #4: Must be neutral or lawful. A chaotic character does not have the dicipline for the path.

Disadvantage #5: If reputation below 6, will fall. Loose all abilities and become a normal fighter who can't wear armor. Appropriate with respect to the L/N requirement, and the historical need for keeping your "face". You must seem reputable, you are a noble. What you do in your own home however... Probably works very well with the virtue mod...


QUOTE 
 

Requiremets:
- Must be Human
- Must be of Neutral Good Alignment
- Stats: Strengh=15 Dexterity=12 Intelligence=8 Wisdom=10




As I said... drop the NG requirement and see above.
Human/HE/HO is probably ok.
Stats: Str 13 (min for all weapons I think), Dex 12, Int 12, Wis 10 This prevents most stat rolling exploits for those munchkins out there. and is in theme... Samurai's are skilled warriors, not natural warriors.

Comments:

I wrote this in about an hour. If you want me to post it public I can. If you want me to make well reasoned, historical or fantasy, arguments for why stats/skills/whatever should be in a certain way I am more than happy to do so.

Feel free to ask as many questions as you want. I'll answer them as best I can.

Take Care,

- Kabuki

there's the first post

QUOTE 
wow, i love it. go ahead and post it publicly. probably in the thread i made for my mods. I like those suggestions, and they make sense. So are you saying LG LN NG TN? or just LG LN?

that's really good. I wasn't sure about the weight on the armor for the samurai, so that's good to know. someone did mention the longbow the other day, so i'll incorporate that.

are you saying that the samurai should be able to use all weapons? perhps w/ only one proficiency point in some?

thanks for all this hardwork, i'm going to try to get it done tonight.

-Awake




I mean L or N G/N/E - you can be an evil samurai... but you will still fall if you loose face. Makes sense, and creates an interesting tension for an evil character to have to keep their dicipline.

As for the proficiencies: What I was thinking is that a samurai to start out with should not be specialized. There is so much they learn in their "basic" that specialization is out of the question before they are "mature"/experienced enough. I think it is appropriate that they should be able to learn all weapons, and to any level they choose. But in practice it will turn out that players will choose to use their proficiencies in the categories that have already been started (so they don't waste any slots) as well as style slots. This early spread also prevents the "all samurai will be the same" syndrome... where all people do is stuff 5 slots in Katana and 3 in two weapon wielding and then go straight for Celestial Fury... i.e. no replayability.

Also the no specialization or style slots on start really tones down early power (I think).

alright, thank you Kabuki for all of that work.

Also, at level 9 the PC will become a Samurai(starts out as Gasukei), and at level 30 becomes Soke. There will be benefits for these titles.

If the PC's rep falls below 6, then the PC will become a normal fighter. I may give them a special name, i may not. The PC will lose all special abilities, and will not gain them back.

Blah blah blah, i was going to say something else, but i forgot.....

there, there's the update on what's going on w/ that.

[LordKableNikon]

Well there were certain weapons in which were deemed "honorable" and others that weren't so honorable

The katana tatsubo(sp) and his wakizashi were the standard
Though Some Samurai did wear Heavy Armor Mainly it was for Show they did have something called 'great armor" had a demon mask and all, it was rarely used for battle though.
and then they had a Yari, kinda like a spear but had 2 small prongs out of the side
they had a special type of bow, and a few other weapons I can't quite remember, but most samurai had a daimyo so I really think Law is a major part but its your mod.
So the armor thing I just don't buy, a majority of them wore ashigaru armor, which is a fairly light armor, but some DID wear the really heavy armors, so restricting heavy armors would be restricting the samurai unless items were specifically made for them like (Guan-Yu or Dan Wei's Great Armor of Awesomeness)

[Awake]

well, i don't know if it's mentione above, but i'm taking away the freedom of armor. only leather armor now.

currently the hard part is done. i have all the names changing correctly at the respective levels. i've started from scratch though, and it's kind of bothering me that i didn't just take the one i already made and fix it. i wasn't thinking. anyways, everything is done except for stat changes and the special abilities.

Great Armor of Awesomeness..... sounds cool

anyways, thanks for the feedback.

[Kabuki]

The katana tatsubo(sp) and his wakizashi were the standard
Though Some Samurai did wear Heavy Armor Mainly it was for Show they did have something called 'great armor" had a demon mask and all, it was rarely used for battle though.

Most samurai weapon schools of the Edo era taught alot more than simply swords and clubs/mace (testsubo). Yari, Naginata, Yumi and various horse versions of most weapons were included in basic education. The sword did have a special place due to its spiritual and religious significance. And although most samurai probably were better with the sword than any other weapon, a samurai who only relied on his sword skills is useless in massed battle.

and then they had a Yari, kinda like a spear but had 2 small prongs out of the side
they had a special type of bow, and a few other weapons I can't quite remember, but most samurai had a daimyo so I really think Law is a major part but its your mod.

Yaris have any number of permutations, including a completely plain yari (1m 75 shaft 25cm point), usede much in the same way as a bo staff, except with a pointy end... As for the whole Law thing. It does not work in the context of the game world. If we were to be completely true to reality Samurai would not be in Amn. End that statement. The whole Daimyo thing is important, but without a complete mod for an NPC that element cannot be played, and thus is useless. If we were to make it real... any samurai in Amn would be a ronin or an imperial envoy (in which case it's a non-pc kit). In this case some liberty must be taken to allow for playability, interest and world.

So the armor thing I just don't buy, a majority of them wore ashigaru armor, which is a fairly light armor, but some DID wear the really heavy armors, so restricting heavy armors would be restricting the samurai unless items were specifically made for them like (Guan-Yu or Dan Wei's Great Armor of Awesomeness)

Even really heavy armour is not heavier than chain, and is a form of banded laquer armour. Take a look at Tom Cruise's "the last samurai" the armours there are laquered wood. Not metal... at best the wrist guards have metal reinforcement. All metal armours did not exist. End statement (there wasn't enough metal to go around for something like that).

Overall calling the kit "Samurai" might be strong, but it's a good name, and it is clearly inspired by the Samurai philosophy, somewhat fantasized. If we were to model it on reality... well, it would get really ugly... but then again there is no proficiency in "dirty fighting" in BG...

I'd like to see someone explain Nobunaga's initial victory, and his slaughter in the monestaries in honorable terms... and the same goes for Toyotomi Hideyoshi's Korean ear collection. And the quintesencial samurai Miyamoto Musashi fought with anything he could get his hands on... he only wrote his book in reference to swords, because that is what most people used.

[Chevar]

okay, according to ad&d first edition, oriental adventurers..

Samurai;

Class type Cavalier (paladin subset)
armor: any
weapon: any
shield: none

required stats
str 13
con 13
wis 14
int 13

starting at level 1 they can concentrate their 'ki' once per day per level. this gives them 18/00 str for one round.

at level 2 +1 damage, +1 per three additional levels after 2nd

at level 3 (surprise related, N/A)

level 5 - immune to all kinds of fear

level 6 - causes fear in 1hd creatures!

level 7, 8 and 9 property related, and follow related - NA!

more level 9, great kiai - samurai's str becomes 18/00 for two rounds, all enemies must save vs paralyzation of be stunned for one round

MUST follow bushido code, or become a ronin (ie fallen paladin) much like fallen paladin they loose all bonuses until they've redeemed themselves.

[Chevar]

Now for the nitty gritty..

regardless of all that. Lawful Neutral is for soldiers that follow orders without questioning. Realistically a samurai would be a Lawful Neutral paladin class.

Edited by Chevar, 04 October 2004 - 08:46 PM.

[Awake]

level 6 - causes fear in 1hd creatures!

AH! must be scary..... i could do that....

anyways, thank you for your input. did you check my thread at BW? has some of that stuff. The ki focusing is going to be renamed, because i said so, into Focus Sword, or something to that effect. and then greater Focus Sword.

He will be able to use any weapon, and i plan on making him able to fall, and yes, the title Ronin will replace Gasukei, Samurai, or Soke, whichever one the player is at.

glad to see you have your avatar back, Chevar.

[Kabuki]

Aii... Chevar... that's one strong kit (at least for bg1).

Btw. the most recent d20 Oriental adventures stuff is done by AEG (Alderac Entertainment Group) which retrofitted their Legends of the Five Rings stuff for d20. I thought the conversion sucked... but then again I really liked their original system *shrug*. Afaik that is the "default" current OA, but I may be wrong. On a side note, does anyone remmeber if there was a Samurai kit in the 2ed Fighter's handbook? I remember there being a Ninja kit in the thieves handbook?

[Awake]

i just read that they are introduced in 3.5. along with Hexblade and Swashbuckler(!)

[Awake]

Hey everybody! there is a new version of the Samurai Kit. it's the current version, it's in Russian. Unfortunately, i don't speak russian, so if you could PM me, and translate this for me, that would be great.

the sender was "ëÌÅÓÔÏ× éÇÏÒØ"

i really don't have any clue what this means. a website was also included. AERIE.RU

well, here is the Russian version, and i will also put this on my mirror.

BTW thank you for the translation whoever did this

Attached Files

•  SamuraiKit_rus_.zip   0bytes   0 downloads

[Awake]

hey, i'm working on the cutscene thingy, but i can't manage to find the dialogue that imoen does when you rest. this is what her script says

IF
Global("RESTED","LOCALS",0)
PartyRested()
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("RESTED","LOCALS",1)
StartDialogueNoSet(Player1)

also, it's not in the current version, just the one on my computer, Immy no longer starts a dialogue when the cutscene ends. she just joins your party. she doesn't stop for a second either. she walks over to you and joins the party.