55 replies to this topic

[Littiz]

I'm not playing BG2 at the moment, but I happened to start a "test" game just to see how this mod worked out.
Let me be quick with the congratulations (I think the dialogs are great and "believable"), and on to the "flaws".

First, I seem to remember some spoken lines (selection sounds and so) were not "synchronized" with the text.
But maybe it's just my italian version?

Second... the paperdoll!!!
Hm, I understand you meant something special for him, but really, that one is absolutely out of place, it looks too "alien" for the game.
You have the specific avatar already, and not even CHARNAME is granted such a feature.
The paperdolls are equivalent for everyone, they're meant as a "symbolic" image just for the purpose of placing items: I'd suggest to use the same logic for Irenicus.
Opinions?

[T.G.Maestro]

Yep, I already suggested this Littiz once I started to work on LR. Head to the workroom for more info and more flaws.

[Nebukad]

I don't know about completely removing the paperdoll, but if at all doable, I'd atleast like to see it's backround gone. That would in theory make it slightly less alien.

The trouble is that none of the paperdolls bears any resemblance to Irenicus. But one that would fit in better with the rest of them would be nice.

[T.G.Maestro]

Or at least add his "normal" paperdoll instead of the picture. I mean a bam of the same type as used for the Troll, Werewolf or Slayer forms. That would suffice.

[Littiz]

Hm, paperdolls are the same for everyone, they're not meant to portray the specific NPC.
Irenicus should use the regular elf sorcerer, imho.

What about the sounds?

[Nebukad]

The selection sounds seem to correspond to the texts for me, most of the time, and when they don't, it's propably due to reinstalling things in different order a few times too often.

I don't know about elven sorcerer. It just doesn't look like Irenicus in the least. In case of other NPCs the avatars at least have something in common with the paper dolls.

[T.G.Maestro]

Hm, paperdolls are the same for everyone, they're not meant to portray the specific NPC.
Irenicus should use the regular elf sorcerer, imho.

I disagree totally here.
Irenicus is a most unique character, and he uses a special avatar too. The paperdoll should reflect the avatar, not an ideological picture of the character. I shudder at the thought of seeing Irenicus as a stubborn mage, with black hair, all over its face of course...

On the other hand, the paperdoll should represent visible changes on a character's avatar too - but since we decided to give him a non-removeable helm and robe, this wouldn't really bother anyone in the future.

An about the sounds: that is also being discussed in the workroom, really, ask for a pass and join in.

[dorotea]

Folks -- the paperdoll for a custom animation is actually somethng very very hard to make. Irenicus's animation does not have one at all believe it or not. And no, the game engine does not allow use of 'generic' paperdoll in the inventory -- you will have to replace the animation as the paperdoll is 'wired' into the animation (Weepeth) Trust me -- I tried to give JI an elven mage paperdoll -- it does not work. And replacing his animation with elven mage one would damage the feel of the mod.

On other hand I should probably re-work the bam and remove the background. That paperdoll bam is absolutely unique by the way, the problem with such an image that it has to be cut into 2 halves and imported as 2 different frames, then re-aligned so they fit each other, etc etc -- check the squirrel inventory bams if you want to get the picture...

I fear I should drop all the silly notions of leisurly editing the last 4 chapters of BGA and producing 1 chapter biweekly as I planned to, and jump back into bam editing and various fixes for LR. Sigh. Life is strength I suppose...

[Kulyok]

Removing Irenicus' paperdoll would damage the feel of the mod, imo.
Really, I feel that these changes are not really relevant. You can't make the actual actor who did Jon's voice in SOA do it for the mod, and however the sounds are rearranged, the situation would hardly improve.
It's the same with bams. Irenicus' mask and books of Elven lore look much the same as lamp in UB or items in TDD - very well done, but alien to original BGII.
Maybe it's just me, but as far as I've seen there no mods where the quests AND pics AND dialogs (AND spells ! :-( ) completly blend into BGII environment.
This way, working months to change a little here and there is a bit pointless (and ungrateful for sure).
The dialogs make the feel of the mod, they're 90% of the mod, probably.

Though it would be nice to see the pic in inventory to look a bit better,
and be able to equip/throw out LR items at will, it's not cruical. :-)

[SimDing0]

Maybe it's just me, but as far as I've seen there no mods where the quests AND pics AND dialogs (AND spells ! :-( ) completly blend into BGII environment.

I think there are quite a few mods that do. Certainly I ensure that everything on my install list blends perfectly, and I've been told I have insultingly high standards.

As for the inventory pic, does it still have the background with the actual picture of Irenicus? If so, I'd suggest cutting his actual figure out, because none of the other paperdolls have backgrounds.

[dorotea]

Aye -- I suppose I better give the bams another shot. Maybe I should ask ladies and gents from Sol Ek Sa to give me a hand. Every bam in LR was made by me -- and I never said the bams are perfect -- but they were the best I could come up at the time and since I am very very impatient I always do things myself when I cannot get help immediately. There were no offers of help at the time -- so the bams were done by me.

Edited by dorotea, 28 September 2004 - 08:27 AM.

[Littiz]

Ok, I'm about to do a shocking proposal.
As TGM knows well, I prefer to re-work, even entirely, an idea, when it's not possible to implement it properly.
Mods that can be integrated seamlessly with the game have another pace, let's face it, and that's what modders must pursue, in these times
On the other hand, flaws of such evidence generally push me to discard a mod, and this would be really a pity in this case, given the quality of the rest of the work (and given the fact that I was specifically waiting for this one!)

Is it REALLY mandatory for Irenicus to appear in his former body?
We know where he's been, after all.
I mean, are the non-elvish muscles necessary, after all?
He was a normal elf, once, he might be revived with a normal elven body (but with his own face, probably)

I know how you will take the proposal at first, but please consider it.
(sorry if I come too late, but I couldn't know about this problem...)

[dorotea]

I am working on fixing the paperdoll bam -- hopefully removing the background and adding a shadow will work for you. Check on the Sol Ek forum to see what I asked them to help me with. I will be very very sorry if you will have to discard this mod forever because of this issue, but I have my inner vision of the final product too, and Irenicus's custom animation is vital for LR.

[Littiz]

hopefully removing the background and adding a shadow will work for you.

I hope so, of course. But what about items? Are they properly displayed on the paperdoll?
Sorry, I had to disintall LR for now, for modding purposes, so I can't check...

I will be very very sorry if you will have to discard this mod forever because of this issue, but I have my inner vision of the final product too, and Irenicus's custom animation is vital for LR.

I expected your reaction, it's very understandable (and I've witnessed it a dozen times in TGM )
But ask yourself this question: how much is it vital? Vital to the point of becoming the mod's major flaw? Then what's the point in using it?
There are goals when we mod, I know, but in the end, if something doesn't work, it doesn't work, we have to face it.

The paperdoll is something that's constantly under the eyes (and the use!) of the player, accepting such an evident flaw by design risks to turn a potentially perfect mod in a "simply good" mod.

I only ask you to try to imagine *for a moment* what would you do with the mod if Irenicus wasn't forced to appear with that animation.

Edited by Littiz, 28 September 2004 - 01:19 PM.

[Stone Wolf]

I think that Irenicus should retain his old appearance, if only for reason that that's what players expect Irenicus to look like. Unless there's a specific reason to have Irenicus revert to his old Elven appearance, it would just be too jarring a change to justify.

[Arcalian]

One of the things that appeals to me about this mod is that Irenicus still looks like Irenicus (while Sarevok does not) and has a unique animation.

[Althernai]

But ask yourself this question: how much is it vital? Vital to the point of becoming the mod's major flaw?

If that is the mod's major flaw, then I am definitely very interested in playing this mod.

I haven't tried it yet because I've vowed to play no computer games until December (and instead I hangout on forums... great...), but seriously, do you really think something like this is a 'major flaw'? For instance, I would actually very much prefer Jon's old self to a generic male elf.

[T.G.Maestro]

The paperdoll is something that's constantly under the eyes (and the use!) of the player, accepting such an evident flaw by design risks to turn a potentially perfect mod in a "simply good" mod.

Aczually, the words of Littiz hold much truth here and should be considered.
As he pointed out, while the bams have no technical connection to the story and the actions, they are still one of the most vital elements of a project. If they look flawed or out-of-place, it damages the whole project.

I think there are quite a few mods that do. Certainly I ensure that everything on my install list blends perfectly, and I've been told I have insultingly high standards

I have to agree here. There ARE mods at an even higher standard than the original game imlpementation...

I am working on fixing the paperdoll bam -- hopefully removing the background and adding a shadow will work for you. Check on the Sol Ek forum to see what I asked them to help me with.

Hopefully that will do the work here. Again, its a shame that it seems to get impossible to add him a REAL, avatar-like paperdoll... that would be the ideal choice.

I expected your reaction, it's very understandable (and I've witnessed it a dozen times in TGM  )

[Kulyok]

I have to agree here. There ARE mods at an even higher standard than the original game imlpementation...

Could you name it, please ? It'd be very interesting.

If they have even higher standard then it would be no problem for
these mods to be compatible with every other mod (hey, original BGII
is compatibable with any other mod by definition, isn't it ? :-) ), and
so it's no problem to have these mods with "original clean install".

But mostly people I've met consider the only mod to be in the clean install, and that is Baldurdash fixpack. Other mods get installed and uninstalled, so they do not completly fit into the big picture.

So, as I said, it would be very, very nice to see ones that do.

[SimDing0]

If they have even higher standard then it would be no problem for
these mods to be compatible with every other mod (hey, original BGII
is compatibable with any other mod by definition, isn't it ? :-) ), and
so it's no problem to have these mods with "original clean install".

This is very silly logic. BG2 is compatible with every other mod because every other mod is based on it. If every other mod were based on Third Party Mod X, it would also be universally compatible.

Incidentally, I can also think of mods with no known compatibility issues, but the argument's just too daft at this point.