54 replies to this topic

[NiGHTMARE]

Shar may be predominantly worshipped by humans (though she also has a huge number of monstrous worshippers, especially goblinoids), but she herself is not, nor ever was, human. For that matter "she" isn't really a she, it's just that her preffered form is female.

[Stone Wolf]

I think people are just saying that while Shar is a greater Power, she isn't anywhere near the status of Ao, for example. She's just another Greater Power.

[NiGHTMARE]

Regarding the elven, dwarven, etc creation theories, as well as those races' deities interaction with magic: dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings and orcs are not native to the world of Aber-Toril. They arrived there via portal, spelljamming ships, etc. Their creation myths may very well be 100% accurate, it's just that they apply to worlds elsewhere in the universe.

So when elves, dwarves, etc and their gods arrived in Aber-Toril, the ways of magic in the world had already been established by the existing deities (and back then there weren't many, even humans only had 10, as opposed to the 50+ that are around now). It's likely elven high magic was somehow retained from the way magic works in the elven homeworld, which IIRC has been lost to history; no elf anywhere in the planes knows for sure where it is, though some insist it's Oerth (aka Greyhawk).

BTW the creator races, i.e. the sentient species native to Aber-Toril are sarrukh (from which yuan-ti, nagas, etc are descended), dragons, aquatic shapechangers (who evolved into dopplegangers and locathah), fey (who became sprites, nymphs, etc) and humans. Giants (and numerous offshoot races, such as ogres and ettins) are also native to Aber-Toril, but their civilization never grew great enough for them to be considered one of the creator races.

The first non-native species to arrive in Aber-Toril were dwarves, then treants, elves, and mindflayers. They mainly came through portals established on Faerun by members of the creator races, though obviously some created portals on their own worlds. After that came halflings, gnomes, goblinoids, beholders, centaurs, etc, etc.

EDIT: Oh, and all this isn't yet another 3E retcon. IIRC the creator races were first mentioned in 2nd Edition sourcebook The Savage Frontier, though it was very vague - it lists three of the creator races as being lizard, amphibian and avian, but doesn't say who the other two were. It does, however, make clear that elves were not one of the creator races.

Powers and Pantheons (yep, 2E) expanded on it greatly. In fact, the details listed in P&P are almost exactly the same as those which can be found the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. P&P says the first creator race was a dinosauroid species, who were supplanted by an aquatic shapechanging species who became amphibious. Dragons were third, the fourth was a sylvan people, and the fifth was humanity.

[Stone Wolf]

Aren't the elven deities more univeral though? That would make them a bit more powerful than the human ones overall.

[dorotea]

BTW the creator races, i.e. the sentient species native to Aber-Toril are sarrukh (from which yuan-ti, nagas, etc are descended), dragons, aquatic shapechangers (who evolved into dopplegangers and locathah), fey (who became sprites, nymphs, etc) and humans. Giants (and numerous offshoot races, such as ogres and ettins) are also native to Aber-Toril, but their civilization never grew great enough for them to be considered one of the creator races.

Nod, I was not sure about fey -- and btw is not it strange that sylvan creatures share elven connection to Arvandor (via Elven Spirit) and yet are native to Toril while elves are not?

Also, according to E. Cunningham at least, avariel and wood elves might be native to Toril, while sun and moon (gold and silver) elven clans are indeed emigrants. Not sure about the illithiri (dark elves' ancestors) they are present at the moment of the emigrant elves arrival though.

In any case, even assuming ALL elves are non-native, is not it strange that they practice magic and bult great Empires for tens of thousands of years without even bothering to worship either Mystral or Shar? While native humans woship her yet were not magic-users until the time of Netheril, when they are supposedly taught by elven mages? And if you look at this link you will see why I say it is inane.

http://www.geonomico...um/TAHOTFR2.htm

Then out of sudden great human magical Empire develops over a course of a few centuries and destroys itself killing Mystral as well?

Elves are present at all times and yet they never worship Mystral in great numbers? Then tada -- Mystra is born and Shar begins to develop her 'underground' Weave

I assume Shar only started working on that 'project' of hers after Netheril's fall as it is the first time it is ever mentioned -- when one of the flying cities gets drawn into the Plane of Shadow?

[NiGHTMARE]

Nod, I was not sure about fey -- and btw is not it strange that sylvan creatures share elven connection to Arvandor (via Elven Spirit) and yet are native to Toril while elves are not?

Why is that strange? There are portals to the various planes in many (most?) worlds of the prime. It's only 3E that made the Forgotten Realms have a different cosmology than the rest of the D&Dverse, in 2E they both use the same one. It's like saying it's strange that halflings from both Aber-Toril and Oerth (and indeed any other world in the Prime) typically end up Celestia when they die, or that elementals frequently journey to both Aber-Toril and Athas.

Also, according to E. Cunningham at least, avariel and wood elves might be native to Toril, while sun and moon (gold and silver) elven clans are indeed emigrants. Not sure about the illithiri (dark elves' ancestors) they are present at the moment of the emigrant elves arrival though.

Not sure about that one. By native, it's possible she meant that they're offshoots of the sun and moon elves who developed in Faerun. Wood elves certainly exist on other worlds. Elsewhere they're more commonly called sylvan elves, but don't call an FR wood elf a sylvan elf to his face - they consider it to be an insult .

In any case, even assuming ALL elves are non-native, is not it strange that they practice magic and bult great Empires for tens of thousands of years without even bothering to worship either Mystral or Shar? While native humans woship her yet were not magic-users until the time of Netheril, when they are supposedly taught by elven mages? And if you look at this link you will see why I say it is inane.

The question is, why would elves worship Mystrl/Mystra when they brought their own god of magic with them when they immigrated? Also, while the worship of Mystryl obviously existed in Netheril, she wasn't any more prevalent than any of the other nine human deities. Oh, and IIRC there were human magic users long before the time of Netheril, it's just they weren't particularly powerful (maximum of 3rd level spells or so).

Then out of sudden great human magical Empire develops over a course of a few centuries and destroys itself killing Mystral as well?

Heh, Netheril hardly developed over the course of "a few centuries" - it lasted just shy of 3200 years - over three times longer than the real world Roman Empire! Also, there had been human villages in the area for centuries beforehand.

Elvesspellholdstudios.net are present at all times and yet they never worship Mystral in great  numbers? Then tada -- Mystra  is born and Shar begins to develop her 'underground' Weave 

According to Realms of Shadow, the Shadow Weave was first discovered over 200 years before the fall of Netheril (by an Archmage aptly named Shadow), but it could well have existed since the dawn of time.

I assume Shar only started working on that 'project' of hers after Netheril's fall as it is the first time it is ever mentioned -- when one of the flying cities gets drawn into the   Plane of Shadow?

Shade already partially existed in the Plane of Shadow (though I'm not sure how long it'd been like that for) so that the inhabitants had a stronger connection to the Shadow Weave and could study it better. When Karsus cast his spell, the princes tried to use the Shadow Weave to stop the fall of Shade, but being a (to them) new form of magic, they didn't have sufficient mastery over it, and all they managed to do was slow the city's fall.

They moved the city further into the plane to increase the power of their spell, but as they were doing so the normal Weave suddenly returned, and the sudden rush of magical energy pushed the city all the way into the Plane.

[Xander77]

And one more question which troubles me; when an entirely magical creature enters a dead magic zone, is the creature destroyed, since its magic ceases to exist?

A magical construct like golem, arcane magic-animated undead or juggernaut would fall apart or simply turn into an un-animated object.

Oddly enough, a magical construct (such as a golem) is supposed to keep functioning in a dead magic zone (such as Anti-Magic Field)... but not his magic abilities. Whatever.

As for the whole Universal Gods question - simple. Sean Reynolds and others writing for 3e FR are retarded.

[Archmage Silver]

Yep, I have to admit that a one complete and official history hasn't been the cornerstone of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.

[Stone Wolf]

Golems working in a magic dead area?

Okay, fine. They keep working but lose all magical abilities. What are their magical abilities? Oh yeah, MOVING! They can't move without magic. The same goes for talking and whatever passes for thinking. There, rules AND logic followed at one.

[Xander77]

Sorry... I mean SU /EX abilities.

[Topaz]

I never heard anything about the Shadow Weave: Has it got something to do with the failed kidnapping of Elminster by dreadmasters of Shar  in the novel 'The Temptation of Elminster'? If I remember correctly, Shar appoints her minions to catch E because of her will to control the Weave (the real one)... and the story takes place around 800 DR, but is she controlling the 'Shadow Weave' already at that time? Pffft...and why the hell would you want TWO weaves!?

Edited by Topaz, 29 September 2004 - 09:23 AM.

[Archmage Silver]

Simple, two weaves under control = all arcane spell casters under control.

[NiGHTMARE]

Shar isn't simply controlling the Shadow Weave, she created it. As I said in an early post, it's been around since at least 200 years before the fall of Netheril, which is over 2000 years before the time BG2 takes place. Quite possibly it's as old as the Weave itself.

[Kish]

Midnight/Mystra is very unlikely to die anytime soon.

The Shadow Weave is under the control of Shar. Even if there is this plan to kill off Mystra that you suspect (?), even if no other deity claimed the portfolio of magic if she somehow did die, making all arcane spell users serve the preeminent evil deity would be approximately as big a change to the setting as just doing away with arcane magic.

[NiGHTMARE]

Also, if Ao wasn't happy with the deity in charge of magic placing the cause of good before the cause of magic, he sure as heck wouldn't be pleased with the most powerful evil deity being in charge of it...

[NiGHTMARE]

Mystra favouring good aligned mages became a plot point though; she was forced to change her ways by Ao himself.

There's never been anything to suggest Mystra is a racist, so I don't see why she'd feel prejudiced towards humans. As a good aligned goddess, she'd be beyond that, and inclined to treat all mortals equally. In fact, she'd probably greatly appreciate the greater respect and humility most elves show towards magic, so may even be more favourable towards them.

The seven sisters' mortal mother wasn't human BTW, she was a half-elf.

The original Mystra did in fact try to turn an elven woman into one of her chosen, but unfortunately the process proved fatal to the elf in question (Aloevan of Ardeep). I believe the explanation was that elves already have a natural connection to a greater power, i.e. Arvandor.

Oh, and what are you referring to regarding using sex to transfer powers? I've personally never heard of anything like that.

"Whoever wrote all this" would be Ed Greenwood, the man who created the Realms .