19 replies to this topic

[MantraSong]

I know the drow worship other gods/goddesses than Loth, but I have been unable to find a good list of who they are and what they cover (pref. in 3E). Could someone help me on this?

[NiGHTMARE]

The information below is 2E, but I've included some 3E notes at the bottom.


- Eilistraee (song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight)
- Ghaundaur (oozes, slimes, jellies, outcasts, ropers, rebels, all things subterranean)
- Kiaransalee (undead, vengeance)
- Selvatarm (drow warriors)
- Vhaeraun (thievery, drow males, territory, evil activity on the surface world).


Enemies and allies

Lolth's enemies are Eilistraee, Ghaundaur and Vhaerun. Kiransalee and Selvatarm serve her, the latter willingly but the former extremely unwillingly.

Eilistraee is an enemy of all other drow gods. As the only good aligned drow deity, this should come as no real suprise.

Ghaundaur is also an enemy of all other drow gods.

Kiaransalee's only enemy amongst the Drow pantheon is Eilistraee. She constantly struggles to free herself from Lolth's grasp, so may well one day call her former mistress (and Lolth's more willing servant, Selvatarm) a foe.

Selvatarm's enemies are Eilistraee, Ghaundaur and Vhaeraun.

Vhaeraun's enemies are Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur and Lolth.


Relationships

Lolth (originally known as Araushnee) is the mother of Eilistraee and Vhaerun, and grandmother of Selvatarm. She was once the consort of Corellon Larethian but, along with Gruumsh (chief deity of the Orcs), Malar (human god of marauding beasts, monsters, blood, etc) Ghaundaur, Vhaerun and various other evil gods, tried to kill him. For her crimes, she was changed in a spider-like Tanar'ri and banished to the Abyss.

Eilistraee is the daughter of Lolth and Corellon Larethian, and sister of Vhaerun. During a battle with a host of evil deities intent on seizing the elven plane of Arvandor, she accidentally struck her father with an arrow, almost killing him (both the host of evil deities and the "accident" proved to be the work of Araushnee). Forseeing her presence amongst her evil kin would one day be needed to maintain the balance, she volunteered to be banished alongside them.

Unlike the other drow deities, Ghaundaur was never a member of the Seldarine or a mortal drow - he's existed as an amorphous blob since the dawn of time. Upon arriving in the Abysss, Lolth took his domain, forcing him to retreat to the paraelemental plane of ooze. She later forced him to help her in her campaign on Faerun.

Kiaransalee was once a mortal drow on another world, and ended up turning the entire planet into a world of the undead. She fled into the Abyss, and eventually ascended to deityhood. All this took place long before Lolth betrayed Corellon. When Lolth arrived in the Abyss, she forced Kiaransalee to accept her as her superior.

Selvatarm is the son of Vhaerun, but shows no love for his father. His mother was a elven goddess of the Yuirwood called Zandilar, who merged with the minor Mulhorandi deity Bast to become the human goddess Sharess (an act which caused Selvatarm's premature birth). He was originally neutral in alignment and was being turned to the path of goodness by his aunt Eilistraee, but ended up being corrupted by his grandmother, Lolth.

Vhaerun is the son of Lolth and Corellon Larethian, and brother of Eilistraee. Llike Selvatarm, he shows no love for his parents (or his sister for that matter). He helped his mother try to kill his father, and was banished alongside her.


3E notes

It gets a bit confusing here .

You see, the drow deities are worshipped in many worlds across the D&D universe (many worlds are inhabited soley by drow), and being a universe there are, of course, a virtually infinite number of worlds. As noted above, in 2E Kiaransalee actually comes from one of these other worlspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netds,.

However, according to 3E the Forgotten Realms doesn't have the same cosmology as the other D&D settings. So while the inhabitants of 3rd Edition Greyhawk would tell you Lolth resides in the Abyss, to the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms she resides in the Demonweb Pits. Similarly, according to 3E FR Kiaransalee doesn't come from another world, rather another (unspecified) plane of existience, and there's no mention of her turning the place into a land of the undead either. The undead inhabitants of that other world would beg to differ, however .

Also, in 2E only Lolth, Kiaransalee, and Selvatarm remained in the Abyss. Lolth and Selvatarm reside in the 66th level, known as the Demonweb Pits; Kiaransalee has her own domain in the 113th level of the Abyss, Thanatos. As mentioned above, Ghaundaur retreated to the paraelemental plane of Ooze; Eilistraee resides in Ysgard; and Vhaerun in Carceri.

In 3E, all of the drow deities except Eilistraee inhabit the Demonweb Pits, which under the influence of its godly inhabitants eventually drifted away and become a plane of it's own (although as already mentioned, if you're from a different world in the Prime Material Plane the Demonweb Pits is still part of the Abyss ). Even Eilistraee technically has a place of residence in the Abyss, but these days she spends most of her time with the elven pantheon in Arvandor.

This presumably means that in the 3E Forgotten Realms version of events, Lolth didn't take control of all of Ghaundaur's Abyssal realm, only part of it. Yet elsewhere in the 3rd Editon D&Dverse, she did take all of his domain and he's in the paraelemental plane of Ooze (which IIRC doesn't even exist in 3E FR).

Told you it was confusing, didn't I?

[Stone Wolf]

Well, someone has a copy of Demihuman Deities.

[MantraSong]

Told you it was confusing, didn't I?

Yup, but that was what I needed to know. Thank you very much
One more question: What cleric domains are they responsible for?

[NiGHTMARE]

Eilistraee: Chaos, Charm, Drow, Elf, Good, Moon, Portal
Ghaundaur: Cavern, Chaos, Drow, Evil, Hatred, Slime
Kiaransalee: Chaos, Drow, Evil, Retribution, Undeath
Lolth: Chaos, Drow, Evil, Darkness, Destruction, Spider, Trickery
Selvatarm: Chaos, Drow, Evil, Spider, War
Vhaeraun: Chaos, Drow, Evil, Travel, Trickery

[Andyr]

Ghaundaur is very much still independent in FR - you meet some worshippers of its in Ust Natha.

Also, Ghaunadaur has a race of ooze shapechangers to do his bidding in FR, the Ghaunadan. I hear there may be an NPC mod for Tutu involving one at Gibberlings Three, or something.

[JPS]

Unlike the other drow deities, Ghaundaur was never a member of the Seldarine or a mortal drow - he's existed as an amorphous blob since the dawn of time.  Upon arriving in the Abysss, Lolth took his domain, forcing him to retreat to the paraelemental plane of ooze.  She later forced him to help her in her campaign on Faerun.

Here is a short hymn to Ghaundaur that I felt compelled to write after reading this. Because that's the kind of person I am. Imagine it being recited by a priest or cult leader at a secret gathering of the faithful, but not too loudly, because then the Matron Mothers could hear them.

Oh, and you'll also need to imagine that what followers of Ghaundaur really want it to turn into happily bouncing blobs of primordial goo, but really, what other reason could thay have for following a god of slime?

---

O Blob
Who has existed
Since the dawn of time
In eternally amorphous gooeyness

O globule of semi-liquid viscosity
Holy glob of slimy insubstantiality
Grant us the gift of extatic elasticity

[Stone Wolf]

Heh, we really need a mod to take the group to the Plane of Ooze.

[Archmage Silver]

Eh, it would be so slimy mod that the folks wouldn't touch it with a big stick .

[Stone Wolf]

Still, the NPC reactions would be worth it.

[Bane]

Would drow males be punished for serving one of Lloth's subordinates (Sel and Kiara) instead of serving lloth herself?

Also did version 3 of the rules dramatically change from version 2E (cosmology that is)?

Thanks in advance

[Arachnos]

Drow males who follow Selvetarm wont be punished by Llothites. In fact, Llothite females would probably show a male more respect if he was a follower of Selvetarm (especially if he is a divine caster). Selvetarm is Lloth's champion (and he is intensely loyal to his grandmother). Females might even gain respect amongst their peers if they have a Arcane Disciple or a Blackguard of Selvetarm as a bodyguard.

As for followers of Kiaransalee, that's more doubtful. While Kia is a servant of Lloth, it's more lip-service than anything else. She does'nt have the unswerving loyalty that Selvetarm does (and therefore neither do her worshippers)

[NiGHTMARE]

Also did version 3 of the rules dramatically change from version 2E (cosmology that is)?

Yes, but only in the Forgotten Realms and presumably other settings on the same world (i.e. Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and Maztica - not that any of these have any official 3E material published). In all other D&D settings, the cosmology is the same as it's always been (AFAIK anyway).

[Stone Wolf]

Also did version 3 of the rules dramatically change from version 2E (cosmology that is)?

Yes, but only in the Forgotten Realms and presumably other settings on the same world (i.e. Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and Maztica - not that any of these have any official 3E material published). In all other D&D settings, the cosmology is the same as it's always been (AFAIK anyway).

So is this just another case of the Primes not having a clue, or is there something strane going on? I know the number of Planes and their names were constantly revised, but they ascribed that to ignorance.

[JPS]

From what I've heard, the Forgotten Realms had their own cosmology way back before it was a D&D setting. It was bought (or licenced, or leased, or however these things work) by TSR during a phase when their policy was that anything that existed in one of the settings should exist in all of them, and so the FR cosmology was forced into the standard setup with the planes and the Great Ring and everything.

When the FR sourcebooks were being rewritten for 3rd edition D&D, the rules (or the company) were no longer the same, and so the people responsible decided to go for something as close to the original version as possible, which is probably a good thing. It does lead to some problems with compatibility at times, though...

EDIT: Oh, and I belive that the official line is that the planes have always been the way they are now, and that people in the realms have always known it, and if that causes serious continuity problems in your campaigns we're very sorry, but you'll have to live with it. I thought I had a link, but I seem to have lost it.

Edited by JPS, 23 September 2004 - 10:20 AM.

[Stone Wolf]

I really think I prefer the ignorance explanation. I mean, deities that are prominant on a world would be seen as the most powerful anywhere, so their realms would be thought of as an entire plane. It is kinda hard to explain the whole Plane-Layer-Realm thing anyways, so confusion is natural.

They did simplify the elemental planes though. They got rid of most of the demi- and para-elemental planes, iirc.

[NiGHTMARE]

The problem with the new FR cosmology is that it still has numerous things linking it to the D&D cosmology. If they had dumped ALL the D&D plane names (Arvandor, the Nine Hells and the Abyss still remain) and all the gods who're worshipped on other worlds (i.e. one heck of a lot of them) it would be a lot more clear that the Realms are no longer part of the D&D universe.

Obviously all that would have required even more radical changes than were made, but if you're not willing to go the whole way why even bother?

Also, there are still references to other worlds (3E FR still say various deities, such as the entire Mulhorandi pantheon, come from another world), and AFAIK spelljamming ships are still around in 3E FR, so clearly there's still a universe of some kind outside the Forgotten Realms. Why Wizards suddenly decided this universe can't be the one used by every other D&D setting is a mystery.

"We changed it because we can" just doesn't seem like a good enough reason.

[Stone Wolf]

It sounds like they're just being pissy to me. Fortunately, I've written off 3E as a waste of time and money so I can ignore all the stupidity they come up with.

[Azkyroth]

It sounds like they're just being pissy to me. Fortunately, I've written off 3E as a waste of time and money so I can ignore all the stupidity they come up with.

The abilility to be consistent across the board seems only up to the DM here-on. 3rdE being whack? I've looked at the stuff in it very little (deities) except to deal with the Salvatore (and cohorts), and the Avatar FR stuff. Now 3.5 has been only out for a while and 4E is starting to cause me to want to laugh . . . .laugh at their selfishness; but laugh at any and all the folks who are acting as if they are interested in supporting it (ie; being silly enough to go buy [into] the new shxt.
By the way, was I the only one who lost a little respect with the FR War of the Spiderqueen project?
Each did well, I guess. . . if it were only that there weren't so many inconsistencies from book to book. It was as if the person really didn't follow the facts stated by the previous author, and that Salvatore didn't really proof-read. I guess I had issue with his occasionally altering facts in his own books, but tried to mark that up to time passing between writing of some of 'em. . .. oh well.

Kiaransalee sent you, I take it?

Edited by Azkyroth, 02 November 2007 - 04:42 PM.