The restrictions were imposed by Mystrya herself. After all, she didn't want another archwizard attempting to cast the same (or a similar) spell again.
Shadow Weave?
Started by Eclipse, Sep 14 2004 04:37 PM
33 replies to this topic
#21
NiGHTMARE
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#22
Archmage Silver
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 11:05 AM
Of course. Then they will of course try to find an another way to do the same thing. Its natural, like Fizban losing his hat all the time.
#23
LordKableNikon
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 09:48 PM
Yes BUT now with the Shadow Weave Mystra CAN NOT put a restriction on that level 12 spell Karsus' Avatar, or even make it so that spell can't be re-created by a shadow weave user, without direct intervention (like killing the arch-mage) So that being said there may be more spells during the present Faerunian era, but it is Ultimately for the sheer fact there are no restrictions that the Shadow Adept (shadow weave user) has the MOST potential out of the spell-casting classes.
#24
Archmage Silver
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Posted 03 October 2004 - 04:52 AM
Yes, but the Shadow Weave is considered too complex to be used in pc rpg, like Bg's imo.
#25
NiGHTMARE
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Posted 03 October 2004 - 06:05 AM
I very much doubt Shar would allow level 12+ spells in the Shadow Weave, since if someone managed to recreate Karsus' Avatar they could potentially steal her portfolio.
#26
Archmage Silver
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#27
-Random RPGER Guy-
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Posted 03 October 2004 - 11:13 AM
Well I tend to agree that she would not allow that exact spell, but what would be a better what of tempting wizards to follow you?I very much doubt Shar would allow level 12+ spells in the Shadow Weave, since if someone managed to recreate Karsus' Avatar they could potentially steal her portfolio.
She is A NE diety
The Majority of Wizards (and most commoners) are True Neutral
That means there is a 1 step alignment differential, thus it would be easy to "coerce" worship to wizards who are fed up with such a slow progression, and making it so they can cast nearly whatever spell they wanted or worship. Maybe not getting the avatar spell, but what about an 11th leve spell? So to make things simple I am going to agree with LordKableNikon
That the shadow weave can give you near infinitely more potential than the normal weave, for the lack of restrictions on said weave, now putting it in a bg2 engine I sincerely doubt that could happen, for that would make is grossly unfair for the other mages (but in PnP Epic levels it SHOULD be unfair) if there were to be a tree for the shadow adepts then one would need to make something like a "paradox" system akin to "mage the ascension"
#28
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Posted 03 October 2004 - 09:24 PM
Maybe I'm missing something but why in the Hells would the Shadow Weave crash in the middle of a battle?
On a related (or maybe completely unrelated topic) doesn't Weave and Shadow Weave magic mix rather explosively? It's been a while since I've read the Return of the Archwizards series but aren't the phaerimm freed when a Weave spell and Shadow Weave spell react and cause the failure of the Sharn shield around the Anauroch?
I would say very few people on all Faerun are true neutral, most being either neutral good or neutral evil.
Being a Shadow Weave user has very little potential at all because you are permenantly in thrall to Shar's will. Once you use the Shadow Weave, you can never use the normal Weave again. Shar can ban you from the Shadow Weave for doing anything she doesn't like. Mystra, on the other hand, can only ban other beings (both mortal and divine) if they directly endanger the Weave through their actions.
On a related (or maybe completely unrelated topic) doesn't Weave and Shadow Weave magic mix rather explosively? It's been a while since I've read the Return of the Archwizards series but aren't the phaerimm freed when a Weave spell and Shadow Weave spell react and cause the failure of the Sharn shield around the Anauroch?
I would say very few people on all Faerun are true neutral, most being either neutral good or neutral evil.
Being a Shadow Weave user has very little potential at all because you are permenantly in thrall to Shar's will. Once you use the Shadow Weave, you can never use the normal Weave again. Shar can ban you from the Shadow Weave for doing anything she doesn't like. Mystra, on the other hand, can only ban other beings (both mortal and divine) if they directly endanger the Weave through their actions.
#29
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Posted 04 October 2004 - 12:11 AM
Firstly I will address things case by case and drop it for it seems I am not being clear enough.Maybe I'm missing something but why in the Hells would the Shadow Weave crash in the middle of a battle?
On a related (or maybe completely unrelated topic) doesn't Weave and Shadow Weave magic mix rather explosively? It's been a while since I've read the Return of the Archwizards series but aren't the phaerimm freed when a Weave spell and Shadow Weave spell react and cause the failure of the Sharn shield around the Anauroch?
I would say very few people on all Faerun are true neutral, most being either neutral good or neutral evil.
Being a Shadow Weave user has very little potential at all because you are permenantly in thrall to Shar's will. Once you use the Shadow Weave, you can never use the normal Weave again. Shar can ban you from the Shadow Weave for doing anything she doesn't like. Mystra, on the other hand, can only ban other beings (both mortal and divine) if they directly endanger the Weave through their actions.
1) Most people in the AD&D universe are TN it is stated meaning Undecided or the Druidic TN, or the True Neutral of they only care for themselves and there immediate families... that being sad check the PhB's and TN is said to be a common alignment hell even the alignment for humans standard is TN, and unless your on ravenloft, the standard is TN (and in ravenloft the standard is CN)
now
2) Mages who "stumble" on to the shadow weave lose 2 wisdom points and they are not thralled.
3) If you want to say that all shadow weave users who worship shar then the reverse would most likely apply all other clerics are thralled to mystra, it is an ABSURD notion.
3) Shar Can ban you from the shadow weave if a wizard, banning divine magic means she'd have to ban it all from ALL of her followers (not going to happen)
4) for mystra to deny a god she'd have to deny all gods (not going to happen)
5) Mystra can ban people from the weave, and you know who the people who are banned from the weave go... to shar.
6) If a cleric of Shar is considered a thrall then by all means all clerics of the other dieties are thralls
7) Shar may be evil but she isn't going to ban a wizard who is a worshipper of hers just because she feel's contrary especially if the potential of the wizard is that he can cast 11th tier magic ( She is Neutral Evil NOT Neutral Stupid)
So by the sheer fact of having UN-RESTRICTED MAGIC = near infinite potential9) Limited magic using the weave means restricted magic = limited potential.
that having been said I leave this topic be for enough has been said. Logic wins.
#30
NiGHTMARE
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Posted 04 October 2004 - 01:03 AM
3) You don't have to worship Shar to use the Shadow Weave, true. However, Shar only lets non-believers use the Shadow Weave if she thinks it will be beneficial to her. If an existing user does something contrary to her interests, she will remove their access. Worshippers of her enemies (e.g. Lathander, Selune and Shaundakul ) most definitely will never be allowed to use it.
4) Wrong. In the novel Prince of Lies, Mystra denies Cyric access to the Weave. His followers still get their divine spells, but he's personally incapable of casting even a cantrip (0-level spell). This includes being limited to only one avatar (rather than the usual 10), and not being able to travel to Faerun unless someone else creates a portal for him.
5) Not neccessarily. As I said in 3), they'd only be allowed to access the Shadow Weave if it suited Shar's purposes. If, for example, a wizard in Zhentil Keep were denied access to the Weave, it's extremely doubtful Shar would allow him to use the Shadow Weave - a] because she won't really want to help out Bane, and b] because there's a war brewing between the Zhentarim and the city of Shade (the latter being an entire city of Shar-worshippers).
6) In that they have to serve the interests of their deity else lose their powers then yes, that's true. Of course, how much lee-way they have to interpret and act on the deity's interests depends entirely on the deity in question.
Shar IS going to impose a limit, because (as has already been proven in the past) when you get to a certain magnitude of magic (i.e. 12+), it has the potential to be used directly against the gods themselves - including her.
4) Wrong. In the novel Prince of Lies, Mystra denies Cyric access to the Weave. His followers still get their divine spells, but he's personally incapable of casting even a cantrip (0-level spell). This includes being limited to only one avatar (rather than the usual 10), and not being able to travel to Faerun unless someone else creates a portal for him.
5) Not neccessarily. As I said in 3), they'd only be allowed to access the Shadow Weave if it suited Shar's purposes. If, for example, a wizard in Zhentil Keep were denied access to the Weave, it's extremely doubtful Shar would allow him to use the Shadow Weave - a] because she won't really want to help out Bane, and b] because there's a war brewing between the Zhentarim and the city of Shade (the latter being an entire city of Shar-worshippers).
6) In that they have to serve the interests of their deity else lose their powers then yes, that's true. Of course, how much lee-way they have to interpret and act on the deity's interests depends entirely on the deity in question.
Shar IS going to impose a limit, because (as has already been proven in the past) when you get to a certain magnitude of magic (i.e. 12+), it has the potential to be used directly against the gods themselves - including her.
#31
Archmage Silver
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Posted 04 October 2004 - 01:21 AM
All true. And if a Shadow Weave user was allowed to make a 12th level spell by Shar, he would not be able use it unless Shar decided so. No use trying to use 12+ spells against Shar (I don't know if Shar would want to use a Shadow Weave user as a weapon against an another god, the caster using Karsus' Avatar).
#32
LordKableNikon
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Posted 04 October 2004 - 03:36 PM
Alright, we can't assume out of character information on what shar would or wouldn't allow, firstly characters wouldn't have a damn clue what karasus's avatar spell is, so really it is a restriction that is not known but its there, so the shadow weave is near limitless for unrestricted spells, but that being said IF shar even allowed such a spell that stole the portfolio of a god, then only her most "trusted" arcane devotee's could ever be allowed to cast it, and you know she would make them blinded by rage towards to other gods like selune, and steal there portfolios but being a god who knows better she might tell them to take mystra's power just so the weave would go poof and well, if the weave goes away where do the other wizards turn too "the new goddess of magic" shar so really In my mind the Shadow Weave SHOULD NOT exist and there should not be a biased goddess of magic but that is just me. Giving evil a reactive tool is quite bad because in the AD&D cosmology evil is proactive and good is reactive.All true. And if a Shadow Weave user was allowed to make a 12th level spell by Shar, he would not be able use it unless Shar decided so. No use trying to use 12+ spells against Shar (I don't know if Shar would want to use a Shadow Weave user as a weapon against an another god, the caster using Karsus' Avatar).
So the comment using 12+ level spells against shar is not really possible why would an arcane devotee bite the hand that feeds it? really people have to get through there minds its NEUTRAL EVIL, NOT NEUTRAL STUPID. evil doesn't equal stupid betraying your goddess just because you felt like it,, It gets on my nerves when people portray evil characters. So here is a link on evil bad guys, on how an evil mastermind SHOULD act. An arcane devotee of shar using the shadow weave, well to cast level 12+ spells must be in epic level thus is an evil mastermind so here is the link.... (some rules may be N/A)
http://quoll.uwaterl...e/overlord.html
#33
Archmage Silver
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Posted 05 October 2004 - 05:37 AM
Ahahahahaa lol 
!!! Oh ho ho... too funny! Ahhahaa! I'll print that and carry it in my pocket just in case...
!!! Oh ho ho... too funny! Ahhahaa! I'll print that and carry it in my pocket just in case...
#34
Stone Wolf
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Posted 05 October 2004 - 11:43 AM
Heheh, I haven't seen that list in a while. Thanks for posting a link. 
