95 replies to this topic

[dorotea]

Err, ladies? I think you both take this argument too seriously. But I suppose it is inevitable, since there is nothing more serious than imaginary word and imaginary characters. Still, take it easy. Pretty please?

Yeah, I know the fate of all pacifists...

[Laufey]

I'm so sorry you think that contradicting you is the same as baiting you - I would guess that is a pretty difficult worldview to labor under.

I do not think that a literary contradiction should be delivered as a comment on my character that is meant as derogatory. And I am not prepared to 'deal' with personal comments made over internet.

It was not meant to be a derogatory comment on your character. I meant exactly what I said, if you think having a contradictory opinion is the same as baiting you, I honestly do feel sorry for you, no insult intended. If you don't - then good for you.

You contradictions to me also do not constitute a debate. It is a known issue that the same plate you'd desribe as blue I'd describe as yellow. There is no  half-way point, so there is no negotiation and exchange of opinion feasible. Therefore I try to avoid conversing with you - unfortunately not successfully this time. I already slapped my wrist for doing it.

Your choice to make, of course, as is every other post you may choose to make. I still maintain that if you post publicly, you have to be prepared for public responses, and not just from people who agree with you.

Granted, the comment about endearing was barbed. Allow me to appologize for it - and I really mean it. The grand question of "Ellesime - Bitch or Not?" may lay in peace from my claws. I am not going to cry over it and I do not want anyone else cry over it. G.A.M.E. Games Actually Mean to Entertain.

On that, at least, I agree with you. Let's just play the mods we like to play, right?

[T.G.Maestro]

Heh, there is nothing more entertaining than watching two girls arguing/debating/fighting over something... ooh, the pure malice..

But to say something less off-topic:
Dorotea, it would be truly nice if you'd allow the banters of Jon and the PC to continue at least for a while even if one doesn't happens to be nice with him at the start. It would be overly interesting to see more dialogues on the "non-redemptional" part of the mod too - where Jon stays the bastard he was. What do you say, would you add afew dialogues (2-3 would suffice, really, just to add a bit of an atmosphere for those who do not want him to be redeemed).

Many thanks in advance.

[Kish]

But what do you mean 'correct' ot 'incorrect' answers or the answers being 'enforced' ? Obviously if you are trying to redeem somebody you dont call them soul-stealing bastard in their face, however much they deserve it. I mean... the whole idea of the mod is that you can have 4 different epilogues and if you despise Irenicus or think to use him as a tool only you have plenty of choices. Seriously, do you truly think I should have given PC the opportunity to tell JI *you are a vile abonimation -- piss of and dont trouble me*, and then expect him to change his ways?

I would say that in order to redeem Irenicus it's absolutely essential, at some point, to tell Irenicus off properly and make him realize exactly what he did and became. Sure, if you greet him with, "You soul-sucking abomination," he'll tune you out, insofar as he can tune out someone he's stuck traveling with, but if he'll tune you out whenever you say something he doesn't like, how can he change at all? And if he never recognizes that the Irenicus who shows up in SoA is a monster, why would he ever change? He'd just keep going, feeling, as always, completely confident and justified in his actions.

[Laufey]

Heh, there is nothing more entertaining than watching two girls arguing/debating/fighting over something... ooh, the pure malice..  

LOL! Well, at least there is no mud involved, and no tiny bikinis.

But to say something less off-topic:
Dorotea, it would be truly nice if you'd allow the banters of Jon and the PC to continue at least for a while even if one doesn't happens to be nice with him at the start. It would be overly interesting to see more dialogues on the "non-redemptional" part of the mod too - where Jon stays the bastard he was. What do you say, would you add afew dialogues (2-3 would suffice, really, just to add a bit of an atmosphere for those who do not want him to be redeemed).

Many thanks in advance.

Oh, I definitely second that! Once RL finally permits me to actually play the mod, I fully intend to play with both redeemed and non-redeemed Jon. Some more Evil dialogues would certainly be nice, if Dorotea wants to write them.

[T.G.Maestro]

LOL! Well, at least there is no mud involved, and no tiny bikinis.

Actually, I have nothing against tiny bikins, but I prefer girls without mud...

I definitely second that! Once RL finally permits me to actually play the mod, I fully intend to play with both redeemed and non-redeemed Jon. Some more Evil dialogues would certainly be nice, if Dorotea wants to write them.

Exactly my thoughts.

[T.G.Maestro]

How much easier it is to sit and wait for someone to say your own thoughts... here is another one for me:

However, in my opinion, the whole concept of redeeming Irenicus is impossible. If there is a character in BG who truly deserves to die and suffer in the worst of Hells after his death, then it is Joneleth Irenicus. While redeeming him, I felt like I was trying to redeem Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot - my point is there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, and Jon crossed them all with flags flying. Nothing can justify his actions, and he can only blame one person for his situation - himself

No need for a long comment or anything - I agree with every sentence.

[Kulyok]

It seems a mod like "All-purpose-Jon-Irenicus" is in demand... :-))))
I already can see the advertisment:
NEW ALL-PURPOSE-IRENICUS !
EVIL Irenicus !
Good Irenicus !
Redeemed Irenicus !
Romanced Irenicus !
Ellesime and Irenicus !
<insert name here> Irenicus !

:-)))))))))) (can't help myself)...

It's great people see it in so many different ways.

[T.G.Maestro]

You can have MUCH room for all these (I know some of them sound strange) by allowing the player greater freedom in dialogues. That is why I advised to add more "Evil" dialogue options, and definitely don't break the line when someone answers him less politely...

[NiGHTMARE]

How about if the PC reprimands or insults Irenicus, he actually counters back with an explanation of why he did what he did, and the PC can then change his/her mind?

[dorotea]

However, in my opinion, the whole concept of redeeming Irenicus is impossible. If there is a character in BG who truly deserves to die and suffer in the worst of Hells after his death, then it is Joneleth Irenicus. While redeeming him, I felt like I was trying to redeem Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot - my point is there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, and Jon crossed them all with flags flying. Nothing can justify his actions, and he can only blame one person for his situation - himself.

I was playing an extremely good and noble character, so I did my best to save Irenicus. However, If I ever create a PC in BG who resembles my own character, then Irenicus can stay rotting in Hell.

You know it is funny how different minds work... I must be weird or something is terribly wrong with me but... my first reaction upon seeing the SoA ending was WHAT?!! And THAT was it? No feeling of the job well done, no triumph, only feeling of extreme wretchedness for finishing off a person who was basically ripped of his soul and thrown out to rot for gods only know how long to 'repent' and ask forgiveness - and who instead did his best to take revenge.

See, I might be wrong again... and it is indeed very noble and just to rip off your lover's soul as an act of punishment and a way to enforce obedience. But I simply cringe at the very thought of it.

I am not sure... but I imagine I would have done the same, were I put in similar circumstances as he. In fact the best way IMHO to make a person commit worse and worse acts is to punish them after each one and mentor them -- you deserve it, you should recognize how bad was a deed and repent and seek forgiveness.

Maybe it works in some cases... in most cases it does not.

I would agree with you on the matter of Irenicus being un-redeemable... if not for these 2 little facts: he admits that he 'tried' to remember the feeling of love and could not (Unleash the denial here and try to prove to me that he is lying - he can feel but does not want to and the lack of soul is a minor detail insignificant on the grand scheme of things); he calls himself wretched and admits that what he is doing is wrong and is a terribly painful thing. (Unleash the rightful anger here and prove that he never admits anything of a kind and that his diaries are a sham and when he tells you 'mercifully quick' and Imoen 'suffered' he is doing it to gloat not to semi-apologize -- but we have already bee through this discussion and I obviously have a different view).

On the side note -- I was replaying Torment for the last week or so and it struck me that Nameless One in fact had commited as bad atrocities and JI in his past... and yet we commiserate with him while JI is compared with Hitler etc etc... I think the reason is the view that these 2 different games force us to take as players.

PC suffers JI crimes 'directly'. It is near impossible to forgive someone who torture YOU 'precious' personally (and your little sister). (Domi -- here is your spot to jump on me again and claim that you really care more for that nameless elf #xxx than for you PC -- yup I know you are noble)

Nameless One is your alter ego... and you are put into his shoes and forced to relieve HIS life... therefore you are forced to believe he can change and be redeemed.

I am still glad that at least by playing

extremely good and noble charcater

it was possible to some to roleplay the 'good' path.

So, to end my rant what I tried to do in LR was to work redemption from a different angle -- make it come from inside rather than enforce it. Ie Irenicus experience double shock in the LR -- first that of the shared emotions, and it is up to PC what to send through that link that you two share. And second when arriving to Elysium -- which is a Plane that has a gate opened to Arvandor, and seeing the demon change and accept the concept of 'evil is suffering'.

I say if I did not convince the majority of players that Evil is indeed Suffering and that forgiveness less painful and more gratifying that the sweetest of revenges -- so be it. At least I tried.


PS

To be continued on other aspects of this discussion later. Chuckle. I do have to attend to my work sometimes.

Edited by dorotea, 09 September 2004 - 06:39 AM.

[Feanor]

See, I might be wrong again... and it is indeed very noble and just to rip off your lover's soul as an act of punishment and a way to enforce obedience. But I simply cringe at the very thought of it.

I am not sure... but I imagine I would have done the same, were I put in similar circumstances as he. In fact the best way IMHO to make a person commit worse and worse acts is to punish them after each one and mentor them -- you deserve it, you should recognize how bad was a deed and repent and seek forgiveness.

Dorotea, you forgot that he was not punished without reason. After all, he was guilty.

[dorotea]

No I did not. The fact that you are punished with a reason does not usually play into your mind right after you are punished IHMO. You need time to contemplate and realise WHY you were punished. And I cannot see how you can have moral doubts and feel remorse without a soul...

[Feanor]

No I did not. The fact that you are punished with a reason does not usually play into your mind right after you are punished IHMO. You need time to contemplate and realise WHY you were punished. And I cannot see how you can have moral doubts and feel remorse without a soul...

OK, let's execute Irenicus. His head shall roll under the axe...

[Seifer]

How much easier it is to sit and wait for someone to say your own thoughts... here is another one for me:

However, in my opinion, the whole concept of redeeming Irenicus is impossible. If there is a character in BG who truly deserves to die and suffer in the worst of Hells after his death, then it is Joneleth Irenicus. While redeeming him, I felt like I was trying to redeem Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot - my point is there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, and Jon crossed them all with flags flying. Nothing can justify his actions, and he can only blame one person for his situation - himself

No need for a long comment or anything - I agree with every sentence.

SSP time - This notion formed the basis of my Keldorn banter!

[Kish]

I am not sure... but I imagine I would have done the same, were I put in similar circumstances as he.

The same?

I think you're not paying nearly enough attention to what happened before Joneleth lost his soul. He was willing to endanger the Tree of Life, to risk killing all elves everywhere, for the sake of his own power. Even in the unmodded game, Ellesime admits it was a terrible mistake that created Irenicus, but Joneleth was already a monster before Irenicus was born. His choices made him one, nothing else.

[dorotea]

Hey -- I am eeevil witch, have you seen my title ? I suck Trees of Life for breakfast...