I am creating this thread for the folks like Sim, etc -- to vent their frustration over LR and Redemption existence. Please keep the Romance thread 'on-topic'.
Why this mod should have never been created
Started by dorotea, Sep 08 2004 07:27 AM
95 replies to this topic
#1
dorotea
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:27 AM
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#2
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:56 AM
Putting aside the fact that I disagree with the main postulate of the mod (soul was taken and Irenicus was selectively unable to feel "good" spectr of emotions, therefore rendering him incapable of functioning as a sentient being) my main objection and problem was always treatment of Ellesime and engineering the "Redeem Irenicus by the end of ToB!" strategy as opposite to her "evil" deeds.
To make it worst, divine characters show up to support the author's view on what has happened in Suldanessellar.
Corellion sais that Ellesime was wrong and Corellion (top Elven diety) says that Irenicus should have been killed by the author. That happens w/o Ellesime present and having a chance to mention that f.ex, that should Irenicus been executed then his spirit has not been allowed to Arvanaith. Ie it gives me an impression of unfair trial, and PC is shown as the force of greate goodness, invested with the divine bless in his/her game to "correct" Ellesime.
Ellesime never gets a chance to tell *her* side of the story.
There is no Ellesime's diaries in the mod, she is allowed to say a few words in the beginning where she is scorned by PC in order to get the plot going...
It would not have been if SoA *told* Ellesime's side of the story. As of now, in the mod she is just rebuked and critisized by Irenicus, Ilmaater, Seldarine and PC.
Irenicus on the other hand has a multitude of dialogues in which nobody is capable to take Ellesime's side. It is sort of set in stone that Ellesime was apparently an incredibly stupid and wilful woman who took away an ability to repent from Irenicus and told him to go repent. That she did with the permission of Seldari and whole city of Suldanessellar. I find it hard to believe that it is plausible.
That sounds a tad one-faceted to me.
The secomd point is Bodhi.
The mod obviously choses Irenicus over Bodhi. While technically, ToB cannot hold both Irenicus and Bodhi redemption... it feels weird that all these characters are making such a fuss about Irenicus, but leave souless Bodhi in Hells.
The punishement (if we hypothetise that soul *was* taken from the brother and sister) is much more unfair for Bodhi, the one who was but an accomplice, who did not herself do any harm, but only encouraged Irenicus.
You describe Irenicus as a man who "appreciated loyalty". Yet, unless I am mistaken, while he tries to bring Bodhi to godhood with him in SoA, he does not try to bargain for her life in the mod. So does Bodhi deserve an eternity in the Nine Hells for seducing Jonoleth into evil? Is she irredimeable? Or is she too low profile for Seldarine to worry about? I mean there aren't just one soul available form BhaalSpawn and surely Seldari has a couple...
In the end, it looks like the 5-side story of Ellesime, Bodhi, PC, Imoen and Irenicus turned into a 1 sided story of Jon Irenicus.
To make it worst, divine characters show up to support the author's view on what has happened in Suldanessellar.
Corellion sais that Ellesime was wrong and Corellion (top Elven diety) says that Irenicus should have been killed by the author. That happens w/o Ellesime present and having a chance to mention that f.ex, that should Irenicus been executed then his spirit has not been allowed to Arvanaith. Ie it gives me an impression of unfair trial, and PC is shown as the force of greate goodness, invested with the divine bless in his/her game to "correct" Ellesime.
Ellesime never gets a chance to tell *her* side of the story.
There is no Ellesime's diaries in the mod, she is allowed to say a few words in the beginning where she is scorned by PC in order to get the plot going...
It would not have been if SoA *told* Ellesime's side of the story. As of now, in the mod she is just rebuked and critisized by Irenicus, Ilmaater, Seldarine and PC.
Irenicus on the other hand has a multitude of dialogues in which nobody is capable to take Ellesime's side. It is sort of set in stone that Ellesime was apparently an incredibly stupid and wilful woman who took away an ability to repent from Irenicus and told him to go repent. That she did with the permission of Seldari and whole city of Suldanessellar. I find it hard to believe that it is plausible.
That sounds a tad one-faceted to me.
The secomd point is Bodhi.
The mod obviously choses Irenicus over Bodhi. While technically, ToB cannot hold both Irenicus and Bodhi redemption... it feels weird that all these characters are making such a fuss about Irenicus, but leave souless Bodhi in Hells.
The punishement (if we hypothetise that soul *was* taken from the brother and sister) is much more unfair for Bodhi, the one who was but an accomplice, who did not herself do any harm, but only encouraged Irenicus.
You describe Irenicus as a man who "appreciated loyalty". Yet, unless I am mistaken, while he tries to bring Bodhi to godhood with him in SoA, he does not try to bargain for her life in the mod. So does Bodhi deserve an eternity in the Nine Hells for seducing Jonoleth into evil? Is she irredimeable? Or is she too low profile for Seldarine to worry about? I mean there aren't just one soul available form BhaalSpawn and surely Seldari has a couple...
In the end, it looks like the 5-side story of Ellesime, Bodhi, PC, Imoen and Irenicus turned into a 1 sided story of Jon Irenicus.
#3
Laufey
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 09:04 AM
Irenicus on the other hand has a multitude of dialogues in which nobody is capable to take Ellesime's side. It is sort of set in stone that Ellesime was apparently an incredibly stupid and wilful woman who took away an ability to repent from Irenicus and told him to go repent. That she did with the permission of Seldari and whole city of Suldanessellar. I find it hard to believe that it is plausible.
I don't. But if you were to write an Ellesime mod, I would be interested to read the dialogues for it. I'd probably violently disagree with pretty much everything you had to say, given our past conversations on the subject, but that's a different story. I'm not about to rehash old arguments here.
As for Bodhi - wasn't it possible to if not redeem, at least bring her back in Ascension? Why I don't presume to know Dorotea's exact thoughts on the subject, I personally wouldn't find it all that compelling to cover old ground.
Or, if we go by the original game, I get the impression that Bodhi was just 'gone' when she was staked. Imoen hints that is why she wasn't sucked into the Abyss the way PC is when Irenicus dies. In that case, there simply wouldn't be anything left to bring back or to redeem, she would be utterly destroyed the way Melissan is in ToB.
#4
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 09:23 AM
I won't go into the old arguments about Ellesime, but I'll just point out that this mod (or what I have seen so far) actually made me like Ellesime more. The very notion, - presented by several entities including Ellesime herself - that she has erred and acted at least partly out of spite and personal wish for revenge funnily enough makes me more sympathetic to her.
I also like the way it makes fun of Irenicus and his foolishness and gives you the opportunity to tell him off and ridicule him intelligently.
As for Bodhi. I see her one of the most 'irredeemable' character. Not because she would be any more 'evil' than Jon (actually, I think less so if evil is judged by the gravity of crimes), but because she seems such an amoral hedonist, reveling in decadent hubris. I just get the feeling that she'd tell any would-be redeemer to stuff themselves.
I also like the way it makes fun of Irenicus and his foolishness and gives you the opportunity to tell him off and ridicule him intelligently.
As for Bodhi. I see her one of the most 'irredeemable' character. Not because she would be any more 'evil' than Jon (actually, I think less so if evil is judged by the gravity of crimes), but because she seems such an amoral hedonist, reveling in decadent hubris. I just get the feeling that she'd tell any would-be redeemer to stuff themselves.
#5
Laufey
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 09:33 AM
Me too, actually. Presenting her as a woman coming to terms with the fact that she made a less than perfect decision, for less than perfect reasons, makes me feel *much* more sympathy for her than making her out to be the Perfect Queen Who Never Errs.I won't go into the old arguments about Ellesime, but I'll just point out that this mod (or what I have seen so far) actually made me like Ellesime more. The very notion, - presented by several entities including Ellesime herself - that she has erred and acted at least partly out of spite and personal wish for revenge funnily enough makes me more sympathetic to her.
#6
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 09:49 AM
Rubs hands -- well at least this was an interesting post and there is plenty to answer and explain.
It would have been strange if the mod centered on redeeming a character did not make him the central figure of the story, letting him explain his position so that PC can argue with him. No exposition -- no background, not plot, no redemption.
I disagree about neglecting Imoen side. It only shows that you did not play LR and did not read the dialogs carefully. Imoen (if you have her with you) is in fact one of the central figures of the mod. She has the most banters (excluding Aerie - but Aerie was not my creation so I am not to blame for her being too verbose
)
I tried to the best of my capacity to rehabilitate her and make her if not forgive than come to terms with her fears and emerge the stronger. You can argue that was one-sided and that I should have victimized her or pitied her... but it is a personal approach.
As for Bodhi -- mea maxima culpa. I shall try to answer more in the Bodhi thread. Maybe later, since today I am having one of them busy days at work.
PC has the most screen time in the story. You cannot be serious about PC's side being neglected -- all 9 dialogs with JI are PC's 'tribine' to vent out his/her feelings, and in fact I took special care to provide for maximum of choices -- some actually criticize the LR for dialogs being too long-winded.
If there still no choice for you, I am sorry, than it obviously was not a mod for you. But excuse me Domi if I point out that you are pretty much set in your ways -- and even then I think there are a few 'pristine paladin' choices blaming it all on JI and venerating Ellesime. True that Irenicus will stop talking to you if you pick those, but I think it is actually pretty much 'in character' for him.
So I think accusimg LR of being 'one-sided' is unfair -- although indeed there is one side that was deliberately left 'behind the scenes'.
I am speaking of Ellesime of course.
She is the star of the original game. The whole story is rotating around her, yet she is only given a few scenes at the end.
I was deliberatly mimicing the SoA design. Why? Because I think that she is already given plenty of opportunity to present her side of the story and enforce it onto the player's mind. The fact that you are such a staunch supporter of hers speaks for itself -- she is given an unfair advantage of being 'on the right' by virtue of being the Queen, the daughter of a god and basically 'paragon of romantic beauty and virtue'. What else can I add to this with my puny writing skill? Present her as a glorious and virtuous entity who is not only always right but also is tspellholdstudios.netender, romantic, loving and loveable? Well... lets just say that portraing her in this manner will in my view render her completely bland and uninteresting. While if I try to go for my version of her in the mod would create an outrage from the 'virtuous' camp that would decry that not only I glorify evil -- I also victimize virtue.
I say -- lets leave 'kesarevo kesaru and bogovo bogu', ie you write virtuous beautiful, kind, loving and otherwise perfect charcaters while I will stick to my flesh and blood, unsanitised ones.
In the end, it looks like the 5-side story of Ellesime, Bodhi, PC, Imoen and Irenicus turned into a 1 sided story of Jon Irenicus.
It would have been strange if the mod centered on redeeming a character did not make him the central figure of the story, letting him explain his position so that PC can argue with him. No exposition -- no background, not plot, no redemption.
I disagree about neglecting Imoen side. It only shows that you did not play LR and did not read the dialogs carefully. Imoen (if you have her with you) is in fact one of the central figures of the mod. She has the most banters (excluding Aerie - but Aerie was not my creation so I am not to blame for her being too verbose
)I tried to the best of my capacity to rehabilitate her and make her if not forgive than come to terms with her fears and emerge the stronger. You can argue that was one-sided and that I should have victimized her or pitied her... but it is a personal approach.
As for Bodhi -- mea maxima culpa. I shall try to answer more in the Bodhi thread. Maybe later, since today I am having one of them busy days at work.
PC has the most screen time in the story. You cannot be serious about PC's side being neglected -- all 9 dialogs with JI are PC's 'tribine' to vent out his/her feelings, and in fact I took special care to provide for maximum of choices -- some actually criticize the LR for dialogs being too long-winded.
If there still no choice for you, I am sorry, than it obviously was not a mod for you. But excuse me Domi if I point out that you are pretty much set in your ways -- and even then I think there are a few 'pristine paladin' choices blaming it all on JI and venerating Ellesime. True that Irenicus will stop talking to you if you pick those, but I think it is actually pretty much 'in character' for him.
So I think accusimg LR of being 'one-sided' is unfair -- although indeed there is one side that was deliberately left 'behind the scenes'.
I am speaking of Ellesime of course.
Ellesime never gets a chance to tell *her* side of the story.
There is no Ellesime's diaries in the mod, she is allowed to say a few words in the beginning where she is scorned by PC in order to get the plot going...
It would not have been if SoA *told* Ellesime's side of the story. As of now, in the mod she is just rebuked and critisized by Irenicus, Ilmaater, Seldarine and PC.
She is the star of the original game. The whole story is rotating around her, yet she is only given a few scenes at the end.
I was deliberatly mimicing the SoA design. Why? Because I think that she is already given plenty of opportunity to present her side of the story and enforce it onto the player's mind. The fact that you are such a staunch supporter of hers speaks for itself -- she is given an unfair advantage of being 'on the right' by virtue of being the Queen, the daughter of a god and basically 'paragon of romantic beauty and virtue'. What else can I add to this with my puny writing skill? Present her as a glorious and virtuous entity who is not only always right but also is tspellholdstudios.netender, romantic, loving and loveable? Well... lets just say that portraing her in this manner will in my view render her completely bland and uninteresting. While if I try to go for my version of her in the mod would create an outrage from the 'virtuous' camp that would decry that not only I glorify evil -- I also victimize virtue.
I say -- lets leave 'kesarevo kesaru and bogovo bogu', ie you write virtuous beautiful, kind, loving and otherwise perfect charcaters while I will stick to my flesh and blood, unsanitised ones.
#7
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 11:10 AM
Er... I thought you kicked me out of romantic thread not to clutter it with irrelevant arguments and opened this thread 'to vent their frustration over LR and Redemption existence'
So I suggest that all folks who'd like to cheerfully report how endearing a character becomes to them as soon as it is made into a soul-stealing, hysterical bitch to open the "I
This Mod" Thread and make it as long as "Did Irenicus raped Imoen".
It would have been strange if the mod centered on redeeming a character did not make him the central figure of the story, letting him explain his position so that PC can argue with him. No exposition -- no background, not plot, no redemption.
True, but what is missing is the 'other side' of the story.
Ellesime - not covered. Your reasoning re this is quite... odd. You tell me that you do not want to let players to know what you truly think of her because you are affraid of the excessive critisism? But the story you are relating already shows Ellesime in a very negative light. When she is not even allowed to say a single word in her own defence even when condemned by Corellion... er... that's very unfair. Moreover, it leaves holes and holes and holes in the backstory.
It renders me unable to comprehend why Ellesime is not involved in the redemption process, why not a single Elf in Suldanessellar spoke against Queen's actions, why the only way you see it playing out is by substituting the 'spiritually high regard' with an insane, cruel and unexplicable descision uncontested by the whole of Eleven Pnatheon and a City of Elves all of them inherintly good.
Furthermore, it ever makes me wonder where this obvious antipathy to inherintly good characters is coming from. Good is bland? and non-good is flesh and blood? I'd contest this. True, good is a rare thing in the world, but because it is so rare it is interesting. The descisions made in the name of good but that backfired are just as fascinating as the descisions dictated by hatred that acheived or failed. Sensational plot and they-all-were-wrong/not-at-all-as-it-seemed interpretations are just as suspect to me as the pure and bold hero who goes and slays an absolutly evil beast much to all populuce satisfaction. Because I trust that they both try to achieve the impact in a lazy way.
If you have developped Ellesime's side in the mod it would have been for the best even if it did offend a few people, because it would have cleared teh shadows. And obviously, much rejoicing would have been here, if Ellesime had one simple branch in which she could be a positive influence. But that was discussed and not accepted.
PC does have 9 dialogues with Irenicus which as you say become shut down if s/he has a POV incompatible with yours. I assume that shuting the path down also leads to non-redeeming Irenicus... ie the game is lost. I am also not sure about these nine dialogues that overturn the outcome of the previous game. I know one should not concentrate on the number but is not it... scarce? Aerie I think has 7 banters with Irenicus, majority of other NPCs little less. While the soulbond gives the PC an edge, the proportion is still on a low side. I would like to note also that the 'redemption' takes place in a very unforgivable environment, where PC is little more than a hired assassin.
You can argue that was one-sided and that I should have victimized her or pitied her... but it is a personal approach.
Er... yes. And very foreceful.
This becoming too longwinded now, and thank you for taking your time
So I suggest that all folks who'd like to cheerfully report how endearing a character becomes to them as soon as it is made into a soul-stealing, hysterical bitch to open the "I
This Mod" Thread and make it as long as "Did Irenicus raped Imoen".It would have been strange if the mod centered on redeeming a character did not make him the central figure of the story, letting him explain his position so that PC can argue with him. No exposition -- no background, not plot, no redemption.
True, but what is missing is the 'other side' of the story.
Ellesime - not covered. Your reasoning re this is quite... odd. You tell me that you do not want to let players to know what you truly think of her because you are affraid of the excessive critisism? But the story you are relating already shows Ellesime in a very negative light. When she is not even allowed to say a single word in her own defence even when condemned by Corellion... er... that's very unfair. Moreover, it leaves holes and holes and holes in the backstory.
It renders me unable to comprehend why Ellesime is not involved in the redemption process, why not a single Elf in Suldanessellar spoke against Queen's actions, why the only way you see it playing out is by substituting the 'spiritually high regard' with an insane, cruel and unexplicable descision uncontested by the whole of Eleven Pnatheon and a City of Elves all of them inherintly good.
Furthermore, it ever makes me wonder where this obvious antipathy to inherintly good characters is coming from. Good is bland? and non-good is flesh and blood? I'd contest this. True, good is a rare thing in the world, but because it is so rare it is interesting. The descisions made in the name of good but that backfired are just as fascinating as the descisions dictated by hatred that acheived or failed. Sensational plot and they-all-were-wrong/not-at-all-as-it-seemed interpretations are just as suspect to me as the pure and bold hero who goes and slays an absolutly evil beast much to all populuce satisfaction. Because I trust that they both try to achieve the impact in a lazy way.
If you have developped Ellesime's side in the mod it would have been for the best even if it did offend a few people, because it would have cleared teh shadows. And obviously, much rejoicing would have been here, if Ellesime had one simple branch in which she could be a positive influence. But that was discussed and not accepted.
PC does have 9 dialogues with Irenicus which as you say become shut down if s/he has a POV incompatible with yours. I assume that shuting the path down also leads to non-redeeming Irenicus... ie the game is lost. I am also not sure about these nine dialogues that overturn the outcome of the previous game. I know one should not concentrate on the number but is not it... scarce? Aerie I think has 7 banters with Irenicus, majority of other NPCs little less. While the soulbond gives the PC an edge, the proportion is still on a low side. I would like to note also that the 'redemption' takes place in a very unforgivable environment, where PC is little more than a hired assassin.
You can argue that was one-sided and that I should have victimized her or pitied her... but it is a personal approach.
Er... yes. And very foreceful.
This becoming too longwinded now, and thank you for taking your time
#8
Arcalian
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 11:15 AM
"Should" never have been created? 
I don't know about "should". I know that as a fanfic writer, I don't think it's possible to redeem Irenicus. Yes, Gaider said that was the plan, but at one point the plan was also that Imoen would never rejoin you and die as the Slayer, or something similarly horrible.
But as a *game player*, I postively rub my hands together at the thought of having Jonny's spellcasting power as my disposal, wether he "should" be redeemed or not. And I'll even do the redemption track at least once, wether or not JI "should" be redeemed. It adds more options to the saga, and increases it's replayability. "Should" is not a relevant question.
Perhaps a better question would be "Why?" As in, why would one play it or not play it, why does one think JI can or cannot be redeemed, etc.
It makes for more replayability for TOB, and that's good enough for me.
I don't know about "should". I know that as a fanfic writer, I don't think it's possible to redeem Irenicus. Yes, Gaider said that was the plan, but at one point the plan was also that Imoen would never rejoin you and die as the Slayer, or something similarly horrible.
But as a *game player*, I postively rub my hands together at the thought of having Jonny's spellcasting power as my disposal, wether he "should" be redeemed or not. And I'll even do the redemption track at least once, wether or not JI "should" be redeemed. It adds more options to the saga, and increases it's replayability. "Should" is not a relevant question.
Perhaps a better question would be "Why?" As in, why would one play it or not play it, why does one think JI can or cannot be redeemed, etc.
It makes for more replayability for TOB, and that's good enough for me.
#9
Laufey
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 11:22 AM
I assume that was a reference to me. I think it's rather amusing how you interpret 'Not Perfect' as 'Vile Soul Stealing Bitch'. And unless Dorotea urges me to depart this thread, I think I'm perfectly comfortable right here. I'm not about to apologise for disagreeing with you either - I never do that sort of thing unless I actually mean it.So I suggest that all folks who'd like to cheerfully report how endearing a character becomes to them as soon as it is made into a soul-stealing, hysterical bitch to open the "I
Edited by Laufey, 08 September 2004 - 11:28 AM.
#10
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 12:58 PM
As I said, if Dorotea thinks it's inappropriate to contradict your arguments, I will abide by her wishes. I would have been just as happy to debate it in the other thread, myself.
Why? Is it so crucially important to forever contest someone's firm believe in the goodness of an imaginary powerful woman? I have my version of the story. If I write it up, you will not believe a single word of it. It simply will not make sense to you. In equal degree what Dorotea is saying does not make sense to me. Frustration happens when people cannot understand each other. I think that's what this thread was for. Yes, it is negative critisism, yes it is emotional. So?
Why? Is it so crucially important to forever contest someone's firm believe in the goodness of an imaginary powerful woman? I have my version of the story. If I write it up, you will not believe a single word of it. It simply will not make sense to you. In equal degree what Dorotea is saying does not make sense to me. Frustration happens when people cannot understand each other. I think that's what this thread was for. Yes, it is negative critisism, yes it is emotional. So?
#11
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 01:46 PM
firm believe in the goodness of an imaginary powerful woman
I think you hit the nail in the head this time, Domi. And it is funny really, if I were Zigmund Freud addict I would have tried to get to the roots of this single statement.
Well, I am not really a specialist ...but let me try.
Why do you think generic 'goodness' is in any way more attractive then imperfection? In fact, here lies the root of general dislike readers have for various Mary Sues -- the more 'perfect' and good the character is, the less likeable it usually turns out... Well, for majority of readers anyway. In order to commiserate you have to be able to 'associate' -- ie to put yoursel into charcater's shoes. I cannot feel any symapthy for a 'powerful' and 'perfect' Ellesime... you on the other hand crave to have this perfect figure of a 'powerful' woman whom as a reader you can assiciate yourself with. Difference of characters and inner 'visions' of the world? Mayhap... Lets no go deeper into psycho-analysis and leave it at this. My observation is though Mary Sues are usually liked by less secure people. I find your version of Ellesime pure Mary Sue and the fact that you combine this 'powerful' and 'goodness' makes her into almost mother-goddess figure.
I dunno... I never cared much for mother-goddesses... I prefer ordinary women as my role-models.
#12
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 02:54 PM
Firstly, generic goodness does not equate perfection. Look at Prince Myyshkin...
Secondly, we all can flang "Mary-Sue" label as an insult into each-others face all day long. I'd go for the "holier than thou" attititude and delete the following paragraph
{...}
Unsufferably perfect Mary-Sue is just one breed. Mary-Sue is the mask of what author wants to be, be it everyone's sweet darling and sex-fulfilling prophecy, a kick-ass fighter, a reclusive mage or a bard of mishaps. Mary Sue is not a type, I think, Mary Sue is a character that goes against the logic of the story and disregards all the rules that set by other characters. It's a fox in the chicken shed - not only it does not belong there, she'd kill everything else except herself as well.
Pivotal strong character in BG2 for me was important.
I appreciate characters such as this, who can shape the world around themselves and, hopefully make it better - or at least attempt to. People who know what they stand for. Aragorn and Eowyn, Brienne, Eddard, Jon... this list goes on and on. Frankly, I do not care why I like them just like I do not give a rat's ass about why I do not like olives (yes, another exciting fact about Domi). I am not going to spend sleepless nights trying to guess why my heart goes out to Ellesime. It just does. If it helps you to assign it to my insecurity - you are welcome to do so.
Secondly, we all can flang "Mary-Sue" label as an insult into each-others face all day long. I'd go for the "holier than thou" attititude and delete the following paragraph
{...}
Unsufferably perfect Mary-Sue is just one breed. Mary-Sue is the mask of what author wants to be, be it everyone's sweet darling and sex-fulfilling prophecy, a kick-ass fighter, a reclusive mage or a bard of mishaps. Mary Sue is not a type, I think, Mary Sue is a character that goes against the logic of the story and disregards all the rules that set by other characters. It's a fox in the chicken shed - not only it does not belong there, she'd kill everything else except herself as well.
Pivotal strong character in BG2 for me was important.
I appreciate characters such as this, who can shape the world around themselves and, hopefully make it better - or at least attempt to. People who know what they stand for. Aragorn and Eowyn, Brienne, Eddard, Jon... this list goes on and on. Frankly, I do not care why I like them just like I do not give a rat's ass about why I do not like olives (yes, another exciting fact about Domi). I am not going to spend sleepless nights trying to guess why my heart goes out to Ellesime. It just does. If it helps you to assign it to my insecurity - you are welcome to do so.
Edited by domi, 08 September 2004 - 02:56 PM.
#13
neriana
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 03:16 PM
Should, shmould. Write what you want, but be prepared to have plenty of criticism thrown at you for what you did. My issue is with how you did it.
There are lots of grammar errors that I frankly did not expect. There are lots of modern references that I also did not expect. Irenicus quoting the Bible, Minsc morphing into Forrest Gump, the words "vibe" and "sheesh", to name a few. The "correct" answers enforced upon <CHARNAME> are obviously exactly what you think <CHARNAME> should say, and the "incorrect" answers are what many other people have said about Irenicus -- namely, that he's a soul-stealing bastard.
A highly unpleasant thread throughout the mod, both in reference to Ellesime and in Mazzy's banter, is a prejudice against strong women. It's even more excrutiating considering the prejudice for Irenicus. You know, that evil, powerful guy who stripped <CHARNAME>'s and Imoen's souls from them, and tried to drain the essence from the Tree of Life to become a god. It's all very well to psychoanalyze why he did it, but implying that it's because Ellesime didn't love him enough?
Finally, why is it that no one "intelligent" in the mod can say anything using fewer than three sentences at once? Intelligent and long-winded do not necessarily go together.
There are lots of grammar errors that I frankly did not expect. There are lots of modern references that I also did not expect. Irenicus quoting the Bible, Minsc morphing into Forrest Gump, the words "vibe" and "sheesh", to name a few. The "correct" answers enforced upon <CHARNAME> are obviously exactly what you think <CHARNAME> should say, and the "incorrect" answers are what many other people have said about Irenicus -- namely, that he's a soul-stealing bastard.
A highly unpleasant thread throughout the mod, both in reference to Ellesime and in Mazzy's banter, is a prejudice against strong women. It's even more excrutiating considering the prejudice for Irenicus. You know, that evil, powerful guy who stripped <CHARNAME>'s and Imoen's souls from them, and tried to drain the essence from the Tree of Life to become a god. It's all very well to psychoanalyze why he did it, but implying that it's because Ellesime didn't love him enough?
Finally, why is it that no one "intelligent" in the mod can say anything using fewer than three sentences at once? Intelligent and long-winded do not necessarily go together.
#14
dorotea
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witch extraordinaire
Posted 08 September 2004 - 03:42 PM
About the spelling errors - well, sorry about that. We had 4 editors, and still some typos etc slipped through. I guess I was too tired at the end -- would appreciate if you can send me a list of most annoying ones.
Mazzy's banters were written by Domi actually. I doubt she meant to bash stronger women.
As for the rest of it -- Bio had more than their share of 'modern' references, I am sorry you feel it had ruined the mood, but IMHO some of the original Bio lines are no less 'modern'
As for the rest of it -- you cannot please everybody. I am still rather happy about what I wrote. :^^:
Mazzy's banters were written by Domi actually. I doubt she meant to bash stronger women.
As for the rest of it -- Bio had more than their share of 'modern' references, I am sorry you feel it had ruined the mood, but IMHO some of the original Bio lines are no less 'modern'
As for the rest of it -- you cannot please everybody. I am still rather happy about what I wrote. :^^:
Edited by dorotea, 08 September 2004 - 03:44 PM.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#15
Seifer
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The best Anti-Paladin weapon is a tin opener...!
Posted 08 September 2004 - 04:41 PM
Just a moot point here. Dorotea makes no bones at all in stating that her writing is quite verbose. I'm not sure if we placed this in the readme but if it was a known quantity before downloading the mod then I have to question the worth of criticising a known fact.
Just like me and my horrific typing infact.
Intelligent, long-winded and Irenicus do go together well I feel. Not on some of the other NPC's but Irenicus...perfect.
Seif
Just like me and my horrific typing infact.
Intelligent, long-winded and Irenicus do go together well I feel. Not on some of the other NPC's but Irenicus...perfect.
Seif
how come you always look so damn cool in every photo I see you in?!?
Speaking of modding, I listened to IER 3 yesterday, so you can have another quote for your signature: how come you sound so damn cool, as well as look it? It's unfair. Seriously.
Still a cyberjock, still hacking the matrix, still unsure of what that means.
TeamBG member - http://www.teambg.eu
#16
dorotea
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witch extraordinaire
Posted 08 September 2004 - 06:24 PM
By the way -- I checked the dictionary. Vibe is in it.
vibe
n : a distinctive emotional atmosphere; sensed intuitively; "it gave me a nostalgic vibe"; "that man gives off bad vibes" [syn: vibration]
As for
But what do you mean 'correct' ot 'incorrect' answers or the answers being 'enforced' ? Obviously if you are trying to redeem somebody you dont call them soul-stealing bastard in their face, however much they deserve it. I mean... the whole idea of the mod is that you can have 4 different epilogues and if you despise Irenicus or think to use him as a tool only you have plenty of choices. Seriously, do you truly think I should have given PC the opportunity to tell JI *you are a vile abonimation -- piss of and dont trouble me*, and then expect him to change his ways? Of course you can do it plenty, but it seemes reasonable to expect him stop listening to you after that.
Where did you get this one from? Blink. Some people... Sheesh.
That was a quote from the original game btw.
And that one is from Immy's ToB banter.
Yup -- I am long-winded again.
vibe
n : a distinctive emotional atmosphere; sensed intuitively; "it gave me a nostalgic vibe"; "that man gives off bad vibes" [syn: vibration]
As for
The "correct" answers enforced upon <CHARNAME> are obviously exactly what you think <CHARNAME> should say, and the "incorrect" answers are what many other people have said about Irenicus -- namely, that he's a soul-stealing bastard.
But what do you mean 'correct' ot 'incorrect' answers or the answers being 'enforced' ? Obviously if you are trying to redeem somebody you dont call them soul-stealing bastard in their face, however much they deserve it. I mean... the whole idea of the mod is that you can have 4 different epilogues and if you despise Irenicus or think to use him as a tool only you have plenty of choices. Seriously, do you truly think I should have given PC the opportunity to tell JI *you are a vile abonimation -- piss of and dont trouble me*, and then expect him to change his ways? Of course you can do it plenty, but it seemes reasonable to expect him stop listening to you after that.
It's all very well to psychoanalyze why he did it, but implying that it's because Ellesime didn't love him enough?
Where did you get this one from? Blink. Some people... Sheesh.
The imp reels from the blow. "HeeEEYY! Cripes! What wuz that for?! I did everything you told me to, boss! Sheesh! Some people..."
That was a quote from the original game btw.
Well, excuse me, <PRO_LADYLORD> Serious Pants. I'll just trot on down to the end of the line, then, and wait for my head to explode. Sheesh.
And that one is from Immy's ToB banter.
Yup -- I am long-winded again.
Edited by dorotea, 08 September 2004 - 06:30 PM.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#17
Laufey
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 08:21 PM
As I said, if Dorotea thinks it's inappropriate to contradict your arguments, I will abide by her wishes. I would have been just as happy to debate it in the other thread, myself.
Why? Is it so crucially important to forever contest someone's firm believe in the goodness of an imaginary powerful woman? I have my version of the story. If I write it up, you will not believe a single word of it. It simply will not make sense to you. In equal degree what Dorotea is saying does not make sense to me. Frustration happens when people cannot understand each other. I think that's what this thread was for. Yes, it is negative critisism, yes it is emotional. So?
Why not? It seemed to me you wanted to debate, and that was the reason for your initial post in the other thread, where you expressed yourself pretty strongly. Yet now you have a problem with being contradicted? I find your logic puzzling, to say the least. Especially since I haven't tried to belittle your opinions, but simply given you the reasons why I think differently.
By the way, if you meant to imply that I have a problem with powerful women - then you just provided me and anybody who knows me with a *lot* of free entertainment.
My issue with Ellesime would be exactly the same if she was a man.
Edited by Laufey, 08 September 2004 - 08:43 PM.
#18
-Ashara-
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 09:21 PM
Why not? It seemed to me you wanted to debate
I did not. I put down my opinion without soliciting others. I had no 'and what all of you think about it?' or 'let us debate it further' in my post. And I will not reply to further baiting. From anyone. Oh, do have your laugh. You need it.
I did not. I put down my opinion without soliciting others. I had no 'and what all of you think about it?' or 'let us debate it further' in my post. And I will not reply to further baiting. From anyone. Oh, do have your laugh. You need it.
#19
Laufey
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 09:42 PM
I'm so sorry you think that contradicting you is the same as baiting you - I would guess that is a pretty difficult worldview to labor under.I did not. I put down my opinion without soliciting others. I had no 'and what all of you think about it?' or 'let us debate it further' in my post. And I will not reply to further baiting. From anyone. Oh, do have your laugh. You need it.
I'm pleased you don't object to my amusement though - since you won't be seeing any tears from me on your behalf. As far as I'm concerned, if you post publicly, you had best be prepared to deal with public replies.
#20
-Ashara-
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Posted 08 September 2004 - 10:27 PM
I'm so sorry you think that contradicting you is the same as baiting you - I would guess that is a pretty difficult worldview to labor under.
I do not think that a literary contradiction should be delivered as a comment on my character that is meant as derogatory. And I am not prepared to 'deal' with personal comments made over internet.
You contradictions to me also do not constitute a debate. It is a known issue that the same plate you'd desribe as blue I'd describe as yellow. There is no half-way point, so there is no negotiation and exchange of opinion feasible. Therefore I try to avoid conversing with you - unfortunately not successfully this time. I already slapped my wrist for doing it.
Granted, the comment about endearing was barbed. Allow me to appologize for it - and I really mean it. The grand question of "Ellesime - Bitch or Not?" may lay in peace from my claws. I am not going to cry over it and I do not want anyone else cry over it. G.A.M.E. Games Actually Mean to Entertain.
I do not think that a literary contradiction should be delivered as a comment on my character that is meant as derogatory. And I am not prepared to 'deal' with personal comments made over internet.
You contradictions to me also do not constitute a debate. It is a known issue that the same plate you'd desribe as blue I'd describe as yellow. There is no half-way point, so there is no negotiation and exchange of opinion feasible. Therefore I try to avoid conversing with you - unfortunately not successfully this time. I already slapped my wrist for doing it.
Granted, the comment about endearing was barbed. Allow me to appologize for it - and I really mean it. The grand question of "Ellesime - Bitch or Not?" may lay in peace from my claws. I am not going to cry over it and I do not want anyone else cry over it. G.A.M.E. Games Actually Mean to Entertain.
Edited by domi, 08 September 2004 - 10:31 PM.
