95 replies to this topic

[dorotea]

You do not need an enemy to exist.

I most certainly don't -- and happy birthday to you m'lady. I think we should not mix literary differences and personal feelings anyway. I myself only want to tell the stories I feel interested in telling, and be left in peace to tell them. What puzzles me most in this whole affair is the fact that real 'blood and flesh' people can hate and wish harm to the equally real people over imaginary game characters... I suppose I should feel flattered for inducing such emotions but I only feel sad.



Here is something for you Domi and please don't feel upset at real person me over a bit of animated pixels.

[dorotea]

The thread topic is "post all negatives here". And yet, the only thing that makes it "worth keeping" is a compliment?

I did not delete the thread -- did I? As for the 'we hate you' kind of input -- do you expect me to enjoy it? I am not a masochist whatever you might think. :nana:

Hey, if you think everything you create is perfect and any and all criticism is unfounded, bully for you, and good luck ever improving anything you make, because you're gonna need it. Luck, or a miracle.

My dear lady Neriana. If you looked at the LR 'readme' file you would have noticed that the mod was written and coded over 1.5 years by at least 15 or more different people. As a mod technical director and principal writer I had to work with all these people, take to their input and modify almost every line of text not once but many times.

There is a big difference between trying to help and improve on a piece of work that had cost somebody 2 years of their life in thinking, writing, discussions and plain beating of head over the wall, while trying to resolve a plot tangle, and outright declaration that 'this is all wrong -- I hate it, delete the mod and shut the web site and repent for your sins for ever even thinking of a possibility as redemption of such a monster!'

For reference that was what jcompton declared 2 years ago -- and was told , thank you, but I, *dorotea*, think differently from you *jason compton*. That was declared politely but firmly, and that is what I am trying to repeat again and again without making enemies, writing creative parodies, and mobilising my friends all over the net on a holy crusade against a mod that I happened to disagree with.

I myself think that there is something wrong with all the energy you guys spend on repeating back and back to me 'we hate your mod'.

Alright - I got the message. I gave you this thread to rant. I politely said -- I disagree and the mod will not be shut down and eliminated. What else do you expect?

As for me needing luck etc for 'ever improving anything you make' , well thanks, but there are many people out there that don't think this way and so far my mods and my fanfictions are quite popular. The amount of private emails, PMs and notes in my guestbook far outweights the negative input. I cannot please everybody, nor do I strive to. You don't like my writing, my mods and my personality -- well, leave me be and don't come back here every week to confirm how deeply you still hate me. This just feels... wrong. And best luck to you guys at PP -- I have absolutely nothing against you following your path and having fun with it.

[Arcalian]

And I am a person who doesn't agree with the mod concept at all--yet I still want to play it. Because it will make TOB fresh and new again. That alone is worth price of admission.

If anything, Dorotea, you have been *too* accomodating of the opposing viewpoint. *Too* tolerant of their view, too willing to let them waste time on *your* forum. But such is your nature. I am not so patient. Heh.

In the end, trying to convince someone who truly does not agree with you is akin to doing this: :bash:

As for me, my party just got the fifth and last tear of Bhaal, and stands before the door, waiting but not yet daring to put the last tear in and fight Johnny Boy...cuz I don't have the disc yet!

[Seifer]

FYI - I'm keeping an eye on the thread due to the tone of some of the posts flying around.

Now, touch gloves, no hits below the belt, I wanna see a good clean fight.

Seif

[T.G.Maestro]

I'm keeping an eye on the thread due to the tone of some of the posts flying around

Indeed - the tone and style in this thread reminds me on some of my previous conflicts over such... issues...

[SimDing0]

There is a big difference between trying to help and improve on a piece of work that had cost somebody 2 years of their life in thinking, writing, discussions and plain beating of head over the wall, while trying to resolve a plot tangle, and outright declaration that 'this is all wrong -- I hate it, delete the mod and shut the web site and repent for your sins for ever even thinking of a possibility as redemption of such a monster!'

I've posted constructive feedback. Hell, I've even posted some in THIS thread, which you've just glossed over. Suggesting that you are ignoring only the useless feedback from people who want the mod destroyed is, therefore, fairly obviously untrue.

Incidentally, I now notice you're taking TGM's advice on balancing the spells. I'll also point out that I made a similar suggestion on this forum some time ago, which was once again completely ignored.

Should I post my feedback in really big text, or what?

As for me needing luck etc for 'ever improving anything you make' , well thanks, but there are many people out there that don't think this way and so far my mods and my fanfictions are quite popular. The amount of private emails, PMs and notes in my guestbook far outweights the negative input.

This is great. You're actually saying you don't feel your mod could be improved in any way? Positive feedback doesn't equate to perfection, you know.

[T.G.Maestro]

You're actually saying you don't feel your mod could be improved in any way?

Just for the record, thats exactly what is being worked on heavily in the workroom these times. Expect numerous improvements, and as I remember you suggestions Sim, you won't be disappointed either.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 26 September 2004 - 03:07 AM.

[dorotea]

This is great. You're actually saying you don't feel your mod could be improved in any way? Positive feedback doesn't equate to perfection, you know.

I am saying that I don't feel that LR is a complete failure, undeserving to exist -- and this is what I feel Neriana was trying to assure me of.

Btw -- this thread title is 'Why this mod should have never been created' if you missed it. It was specially created for venting frustrations over Irenicus's being brought back from Hell.

I suggest constructive critisism as to 'what can be done to make the logic of the first dialog with Ellesime more obvious' to be posted separately as TGM did.

Indeed I am working on balancing the cre, spells and gasp -- adding some content. And as you can imagine the hysteria around the LR does not help much to keep me focused on what should and could be changed.

I mean -- if you find spelling errors the normal way would be to either post a list of these or send me email with them. If you feel you are missing something as a player -- post a suggestion as to what answers you wanted added to banters and what outcome would you expect from such an addition ( ie if you want PC to be able to initiate a fight or just to vent their anger at JI)

Keep in mind though that there should be inner logic to such additions -- ie they should lead to believable outcomes.

Yes, I want to add more evil options, I was thinking about possible corruption of PC, but there is only so much you can do with limited time, and I am simply tired. Believe it or not but I cannot write a complete banter set over 4 hours -- I am a slow writer. It does not mean I am not going to work on improving the mod.

Once again, the tone of the suggestion, inner logic and overall normal human friendliness while delivering it would work much much better than continuous and vague string of complains.

I did listen to TGM and Feanor -- did I not? Seifer was a member of the team. Domi wrote a number of dialogs. Comon, I am reasonable.

[T.G.Maestro]

Once again, the tone of the suggestion, inner logic and overall normal human friendliness while delivering it would work much much better than continuous and vague string of complains.

And while not being a real member of this team, I'd gently ask this dicussion to stop, or at least lets keep unwanted stress at minimum.
The fact that this mod is being generally improved/modified (hopefully to the better) means that it is somewhat futile to toss constant criticism towards it. There are a few key-points however (balancing, new abilities, new dialogues, new items..) where assistance (and criticism) IS needed. It would be much more wiser to wait until the current changes are done, and THEN judge the project and the outcome. If the result will be the same: so be it.

It is a bit strange to be on the "other side" in an argument like this, but it doesn't really matter for now: all I suggest is to direct criticism and attention to areas where it can do any good, and if it's more about releasing some pressure, well, the gym is always a better place for that.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 26 September 2004 - 08:37 AM.

[SimDing0]

I suggest constructive critisism as to 'what can be done to make the logic of the first dialog with Ellesime more obvious' to be posted separately as TGM did.

You've obviously seen my thoughts in the post; I don't feel it necessary to go out of my way to play by the "rules" you impose on providing feedback.

[dorotea]

I don't feel it necessary to go out of my way to play by the "rules" you impose on providing feedback.

I see -- 'I cannot be caged!' or was it 'I cannot be controlled!' ?

I am not imposing any rules on anybody. Just wanted to let you know that your future input would be taken with less suspicion as to malicious intent and more goodwill, if you are a bit more friendly.

[SimDing0]

I am not imposing any rules on anybody. Just wanted to let you know that your future input would be taken with less suspicion as to malicious intent and more goodwill, if you are a bit more friendly.

I'll try to sugar coat it in future.

[Seifer]

A mistake on my part, locking this.

Carry on.

Edited by Seifer, 26 September 2004 - 06:27 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

We probably will all greatly benefit of an all-americain (at least) modding conference. I do want to see JC and you shaking each-other's manful hands and do so sincerely. We will unite or all that is good about modding will be lost in blooding and bleeding each-other.

Hehh domi, while these thoughts are admirable, they will never come to pass, as I'm sure you know well...

*** BTW domi, you forgot our "date"...

[T.G.Maestro]

Sure, I was just joking of course - (but still, it would have been an intriguing meeting, one I was trulylooking for )

now, let us quit being offtopic, right?

[dorotea]

We probably will all greatly benefit of an all-americain (at least) modding conference. I do want to see JC and you shaking each-other's manful hands and do so sincerely. We will unite or all that is good about modding will be lost in blooding and bleeding each-other.

Lol, Domi! You will have to bring a pail and a mop to wipe the floor clean of blood and gore afterwards... My hands are quite dainty and ladylike but I fear the unstoppable Slayer change.

On a more serious note -- all-american conference sounds like a very cool idea actually. Alas, my personal vacation time is short... and being trapped inside a cleanroom with a nylon mask over my face and surgical gloves on my hands as I currently am (yeah -- I guess that is why I sympathise with Irenicus), I could not make it to Romania this year... On other hand if you ever drive by Boston MA it might open interesting possibilities.

[neriana]

This is great. You're actually saying you don't feel your mod could be improved in any way? Positive feedback doesn't equate to perfection, you know.

I am saying that I don't feel that LR is a complete failure, undeserving to exist -- and this is what I feel Neriana was trying to assure me of.

Again, try reading what I wrote. I do think a perfect way never to improve is to automatically take all criticism as a personal attack motivated by gods know what, and/or saying, "oh, the person criticizing me is motivated by ____, so I can discount the criticism." Also, if you want people to be nice to you, you have to be nice to them. However, accusing people of being controlled by an outside source and generally being rude to them is hardly going to motivate them to treat you with kid gloves.

Domi: OT, but what does "shaking each-other's manful hands" mean?

[Merja]

Ouf, shall we give it a rest?

I don't take criticism about the way I'm dressed from my mother. I do, however, take it from my aunt. That is because me and my mother have gone through the 'American Beauty' "Are you trying to look unattractive?" bit so many times, that I am completely deaf to anything she has to say in regards to my wardrobe.

What that bit of trivial information is meant to exemplify is that it's sometimes easier to accept criticism from someone who hasn't offerred it ceaselessly and without demand for a very, very long time. It also helps when the tone of the criticism is non condescendent, non-repetitive, and doesn't start with an 'this mod is useless/tasteless/teh ebil of ebils!'

Also, one would think that saying the same things over and over would be tiresome - how about saying it once and being done with it? This situation reminds me greatly of soccer players protesting to the referee after the opposing team has been awarded a penalty kick. They always protest, but I'll be darned if I ever saw it changing a referees mind.

Taking criticism is an option, and not an obligation.

Giving criticism is much appreciated, being chocked with it is not.