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Could there be Irenicus romance ?


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#1 dorotea

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:29 PM

All we see is a prisoner standing in the middle of her peoples demise and asking "Do you remeber my love?"


Well, what I saw was something different -- a woman addressing a man whom she supposedly loved once by this particular opening phrase 'It is I, your Queen'. A woman telling half-truth to the PC in order to make you do her bidding without disclosing the nature of the attacker and what was done to him, even though this information is vital to her would-be-savior. And asking a man with no soul if he 'can remember his love' sounded like a rather cruel joke to me. She is a high priestess of Seldarine, 'she' of all elves should know what disconnection from the Spirit does.

Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

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#2 -Ashara-

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 08:18 PM

Ellesime never really talked to PC till he arrived into the middle of the Tree beset by parasites already briefed by Demin. Did you expected a milksop wailing over her cruel love? A woman has the right to be a Queen. A woman has the right to be strong. A woman has the right not to forgive.

To the best of her knowledge disconnection would breed in Irenicus and Bodhi the longing to return to the community which will make him to try to prove himself a better man. To me 'can remember my love' sounded like the last hope against hope that it all could still be mended.

She went through the Hells when the whole city all but fell because her love betrayed her. Ther ewas none to console her in her grief, none to offer her pity - Queens do not get pity, Queens do not get kind samaritans willing to restore them after their falls. She had to put herself together and take care of repairing what Irenicus had damaged. And in all that she found it in her to spare him and hope for him to change. That's pure nobless.

Edited by domi, 07 September 2004 - 08:22 PM.


#3 Laufey

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 08:37 PM

Now: Really, could there be Jon romance? Is it POSSIBLE to happen ?

I, for one, don't like to rule ideas out as 'impossible'. So I think that yes, possibly, with a *very* uncommon PC, and given enough time, it could be. The problem from a mod perspective is time - as Dorotea said, there is barely enough time in ToB to redeem Jon in the first place, and I don't think there's the capacity for a potential romance until after he is redeemed.

Welcome to the boards by the way, Kulyok - I see you're new here. :)

#4 Elena

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 11:04 PM

Sorry, ladies, I can not understand.
Let's see what facts are on record.
Some man capture you and your friends. He torture you and kill some of you. Why? He wont to take something for his own propose. What propose? Revenge. Revenge for what? He perform serious crime and was pinished. Punishment was too hard? Well, may be.
He take from you what he want and leave you to die. Then he go and kill his home sity. Not only one person - WHOLE SITY. There was children. Little children.
You can understand and forgive him? May be - if you are Saint One. You can fall in love with him? :o OK, there is Stokholm's syndrome, but you mean something else...
Of course PS is not you. Let's imagine such story with your friend/sister. What you say to her? I think you sent her to psychoterapist immediately.
You really want romance Irenicus?
Sorry for my English and my lack of undestanding such lofty feelings.

#5 SeaZephyr

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 11:20 PM

<< A woman has the right to be a Queen. A woman has the right to be strong. A woman has the right not to forgive.>>

Did I miss something? :blink: I don't recall at any point anyone arguing against women's rights.

#6 Andyr

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 03:16 AM

There is some syndrome where people that are captured and tortured fall in love with their captors. ;)
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#7 dorotea

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 04:47 AM

Erhm, I have a feeling that neither Elena nor Andyr have player the LR... as for Domi I swear that she did not and never will. ;) In any case, I don't see the reason to argue about the case, since there is no plans for the romance (for entirely different reasons than stated there by Elena or Domi).

I only say that since you are not intersted in this mod, will never play it, hate the concept of redemption and so set in your ways -- why do you argue with players who actually player LR, liked it , and want the romance for some reason unknown to you?

I have nothing against discussions -- but this one IS pointless. Please discuss the mod itself and whether or not the plot/dialogs are compelling. Sliding back into the 2 year old discussion is really futile, since I disagree with you and had tried to argue my case in the past with people like you only to discover that they never read any arguments to the opposite -- they 'know' they are right from the start and desire to remain in this condition. I will close this thread if it will go in that direction.

Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#8 -Ashara-

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 04:50 AM

I am only defending my right to use word "alleged" in regards to the 'crimes' asigned to Ellesime w/o being sneered at :)

#9 -dorotea-

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 06:33 AM

Domi, once again you are putting words into my mouth. I never called what Ellesime did a 'crime' or even a 'mishap'. What she did was perfectly logical from her PoV and I once again want to point out the major difference between my attitude and yours : I never ever assume that certain character is irredimably evil or pristine shining good. I never issue a judgement that is ultimate and irrevocable. I never see things as black and white -- there are plenty of shades of grey. In fact were I to see Ellesime the way you see her I would have found her incredibly boring and not worthy to write a single line about... It is the ambiguity of the whole situation that attracts me to the SoA plot and its two central characters -- Irenicus and Ellesime.

In no way I am trying to force my PoV on anybody -- readers and players who don't like these kind of stories/plots should stick to Arlekin romances and Kelsey mod.

#10 SimDing0

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 06:39 AM

Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc... they'd be quite happy to see her sister not only travelling with, but also romancing the person who tortured them and killed their companions?

Edited by SimDing0, 08 September 2004 - 06:40 AM.

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#11 Elena

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 06:40 AM

Dorotea

1. I say no word about redemption - only about romance.
2. I downloaded LR and read dialogs.
3. You free to delete my post if you think it is too provocative.

Usually I prefer not to interfere in such discussions, but there were too many bad news last days. I'm sorry.

#12 -Guest-

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:00 AM

Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc... they'd be quite happy to see her sister not only travelling with, but also romancing the person who tortured them and killed their companions?

Sigh. Not only are they not 'quite happy', the issue is also discussed at length in the banters (with Jaheira and Imoen at any rate, haven't tried Minsc yet). Honestly, don't you people have anything better to do than hang around arguing at the boards of mods the ideas of which you don't find plausible enough to give them a try so that you would actually know what you are talking about?

As for Ellesime, I was quite happy with how she was written in the mod. While I still actively dislike her, the dialogue in the beginning made her position more understandable and I even felt a tiny spark of sympathy, while the pure game version only makes me hate her. Perhaps because she showed doubt and insecurity. So, well done!

#13 SimDing0

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:02 AM

Honestly, don't you people have anything better to do than hang around arguing at the boards of mods the ideas of which you don't find plausible enough to give them a try so that you would actually know what you are talking about?

I tried both Redemption and Longer Road when they first came out, thank you.
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#14 -Ashara-

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:04 AM

I never ever assume that certain character is irredimably evil or pristine shining good. I never issue a judgement that is ultimate and irrevocable. I never see things as black and white -- there are plenty of shades of grey. In fact were I to see Ellesime the way you see her I would have found her incredibly boring and not worthy to write a single line about... It is the ambiguity of the whole situation that attracts me to the SoA plot and its two central characters -- Irenicus and Ellesime.

In no way I am trying to force my PoV on anybody -- readers and players who don't like these kind of stories/plots should stick to Arlekin romances and Kelsey mod.


And yet you make Correlion say that Ellesime was wrong and make Correlion to say that Irenicus should have been killed. W/o Ellesime present and having a chance to mention that f.ex, that should Irenicus been executed then his spirit has not been allowed to Arvanaith. There is no Ellesime's diaries in your mod, she is allowed to say a few words in the beginning and has to be scorned by PC in order to get the plot going... that sounds a tad one-faceted to me. It would not have been if SoA *told* Ellesime's side of the story. As of now, in the mod she is just rebuked and critisized by Irenicus, Ilmaater, Seldarine and PC.

With all you love for redemption you chose Irenicus over Bodhi. Here is an avenue we probably have not travelled before in these 2 years. By obvious reasons ToB cannot hold both Irenicus and Bodhi redemption... I have not heard you talking how unfair the punishement is for Bodhi, the one who was but an accomplice, who did not herself do any harm, but only encouraged Irenicus. You describe Irenicus as a man who "appreciated loyalty". Yet, unless I am mistaken, while he tries to bring Bodhi to godhood with him in SoA, he does not try to bargain for her life in the mod. So does Bodhi deserve an eternity in the Nine Hells for seducing Jonoleth into evil? Is she irredimeable? Or is she too low profile for Seldarine to worry about? I mean there aren't just one soul available form BhaalSpawn and surely Seldari has a couple...

#15 -Guest-

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:10 AM

Honestly, don't you people have anything better to do than hang around arguing at the boards of mods the ideas of which you don't find plausible enough to give them a try so that you would actually know what you are talking about?

I tried both Redemption and Longer Road when they first came out, thank you.

Then you should know that the mentioned people are not "quite happy" as you put it.

#16 SimDing0

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:15 AM

Then you should know that the mentioned people are not "quite happy" as you put it.

It's weird, I don't remember having the chance to try out the romance though.
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#17 -Guest-

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:28 AM

Then you should know that the mentioned people are not "quite happy" as you put it.

It's weird, I don't remember having the chance to try out the romance though.

There is no romance, nor will there be. It says so in this thread, actually. :) The discussion was sparked by someone wishing for a romance.

Given the unusual connection between Jon and the PC illustrated in the mod I could see it happening in some circumstances with a special PC - but I agree with the timeframe being too short. Jon really does his best to resist the redemption, let alone being able to love and be loved :P

#18 dorotea

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:34 AM

Folks -- this thread was started by a player who wanted to discuss the possibility of the JI romance. I beg thee to stay on-topic here.

I am not going to delete any posts unless you start getting personal and try to intimidate posters with opinions different from yours.

Once again -- I only ask you to be polite to each other, defend your PoV in a non-aggressive manner (so that original poster does not feel like she is some sort of a weirdo for wanting a romance). If you dislike the mod -- post your opinion in a different thread I created for it.

Domi, I shall not go into a long and winding discussion here. I did not spend much time on exploring Ellesime's motives and personality in the LR mostly because of the lack of time. I am trying to compensate in BGA. As for making Corellon say what he says -- I tried to express neutral PoV and the one befitting a deity that is not a blood relative of Ellesime's.

If you want to answer this -- we can discuss this in a 'negatives' thread or just start a new one. I want to keep this thread relative to the original topic -- the JI romance request.

Edited by dorotea, 08 September 2004 - 07:36 AM.

Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes


#19 Kulyok

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 11:57 PM

Thank you for your explicit answer, Dorotea.

Of course, the time in TOB is too short for it to be believable for most, and also the _playing_time is too short, especially if you're playing "fast".
That said, it would be a really ungrateful work to do it once again all the way... especially if most people don't want it at all.
What I had noticed during playing the mode was that some Jon's remarks bore some resemblance of "romance mood", so I decided there was an idea of a romance in the air, at least at some point.
I'm glad I asked the question, and, by the number of people who viewed the thread, it seems I'm not the one who wondered. :-)

Also now I've realised how it would look: KelseyRomance, ValygarRomance, SoulafeinRomance, .... IrenicusRomance (???),
and I see how it might sound ridiculous for people (even people who did play the mod).
(As for Edwin romance, I've a shrewd idea it's very different from the first three)

If there'll ever be a chance to read the dream sequence you've written,
Dorotea, I will be greatful. BGA is enchanting, for one.

And Laufey, thanks, I needed to feel welcome. :-)

#20 Laufey

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 12:19 AM

Also now I've realised how it would look: KelseyRomance, ValygarRomance, SoulafeinRomance, .... IrenicusRomance (???),
and I see how it might sound ridiculous for people (even people who did play the mod).
(As for Edwin romance, I've a shrewd idea it's very different from the first three)


Well...I think there is probably more trading of insults than in the others, at least. ;) But I will speak of it no further here, I don't want to hijack Dorotea's forum. :edwin:

And Laufey, thanks, I needed to feel welcome. :-)


You're welcome - it's a scary thing to make your first post in a forum, I remember the feeling well. :)