105 replies to this topic

[SimDing0]

So Viconia could be a hypocrite?

[SimDing0]

I am not homophobic and I use "gay" as a derogatory term.

[Plasmocat]

Maybe Viconia would be a hypocrite in that case. Or, maybe it is indicative of a socialized hypocrisy.

Not to go into a history lesson, but if you were to take elements of ancient Greek social customs and tweaked them to fit the Drow matriarchical traditions, it could reasonably be assumed that relationships between women were considered "higher" and maybe even more valid than those between men & women, or especially those between two males.

Men serving only pleasurable and reproductive purposes, it would be considered necessary to initiate some kind of interaction or relationship with one or more of them in order to provide oneself a family. But these relationships could never be considered relationships between true equals because Drow women dont view men as equals. However, relationships between women could be seen as interactions between social, intellectual and emotional equals and therefore representing a "higher" form of affection.

Relationships between two males could be considered the lowest form of sexual interaction, because it served no purpose as far as the women (or powerholders) were concerned. It could be possible that Drow woman would believe that men were incapable of having the kind of higher mental and emotional qualifications necessary to make for a "real" love.

I don't know how the mod is written, and I don't really know that much about Drow culture. My point is just that taking this one jerky comment from Viconia could mean a lot of different, maybe even complex, things than just homophobia.

Edited by Plasmocat, 19 August 2004 - 09:32 AM.

[Plasmocat]

Sleeping with all of the men in the Underdark wouldn't prevent Viconia from being bisexual. Bisexual means she likes it both ways.

But see, here's the thing:

Nobody cares if you or Longinus don't think Viconia should be written this way. Few ppl seem to care if it tweaks the story a little.

When I say nobody cares, I don't mean to offend you or Longinus or anyone else. What I mean is that it's OK for you not to approve. We're not all going to agree about everything all the time. It's not a problem from the point of view I've seen ppl trying to get across.

What is NOT OK is for you guys to try to force your opinion on the rest of the community.

If you don't like the mod, or approve of the mod ... ignore it & go about your business. Problem solved!

[Briannandoah]

I'm saying that it points her closer to being homophobic than being homosexual if she uses gay as an insult. She doesn't like Valygar, she's constantly insulting him. She insults him in all ways possible and sees a chance to insult his sexuality by calling him gay. I don't know about you, but in my book it's immature and very homophobic to call someone gay just because you don't like them.

I decided I won't write in this thread anymore, but this is where I see things differently and so I couldn't resist. I always thought Viconia wanted Valygar, if not liked him, and since he wasn't falling for her charms, she wanted to insult him.

And as I have written all time long, I never thought of Viconia being anything else than heterosexual, no matter what others have staited in this thread as being my opinion. But to me Viconia isn't ruined because of this mod, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be done. I can use my imagination, as I have done all the time while playing BG series and the mods, and ignoring things I don't like about the original game and the mods. And I like a lot about the idea of being friends with Viconia (I would want that the male PC would have the same opinion, though I think it isn't going to be like that *sigh*).

But these are all my own personal opinions, and I think no one is obligated to think the way I do. It doesn't take the fun out of the game I am playing.

And I think it is ok to express one's opinions about the mods (and other subjects), though I would like it to be done in a way that wouldn't suggest that the one who is stating the opinion is right, and everybody else is wrong.

[Longinus]

I suggest you solidify your argument before you claim anything is a "lie", since you contradict yourself merely a paragraph above.

"The problem is from everything we know about Viconia she isn't." implies that the mod is altering Viconia's character.

"This mod aims to explore a non-existent side of her character" implies that the mod is expanding it.

Making Viconia bisexual would be altering her character into a lie, and expanding her character to reveal a side of her that never actually existed [before] would be the equivalent of lying too, as in it would be inconsistent with the truth.

As you are already no doubt aware, I don't believe this mod is true to Viconia's original character. I can't see how anyone can disagree with my stance. However, I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you, so let's just agree to disagree.

[SimDing0]

Making Viconia bisexual would be altering her character into a lie, and expanding her character to reveal a side of her that never actually existed [before] would be the equivalent of lying too, as in it would be inconsistent with the truth.

You like twisting my words. It certainly undermines your credibility pretty effecitvely.

I can easily expand Viconia's story to say that she once killed a Displacer Beast in the underdark. This is quite conceivable, and not out-of-character for her to have done. However, Bioware never made any reference to it. It is, therefore, an extension of her character. It expands into an area of her character which was not previously present, but it does not mischaracterise her.

If I change Viconia so she once had an elven lover, this is going against something we know about her character. It cannot, therefore, be an in-character extension, but rather is mischaracterisation.

If there's no evidence that Viconia being bisexual is either in- or out-of-character, then extending her character to make her bisexual falls into the former category. And I say again: it is not mischaracterisation, it is an extension. Calling it a "lie" is wishful thinking because you've got nothing with which to disprove it.

I still feel this is irrelevant, however. Domi has summarised my opinion best, with her comments about "the most effective storyteller". But again, you've chosen to gloss over that, as you always seem to with arguments that you're blatantly unable to refute.

As you are already no doubt aware, I don't believe this mod is true to Viconia's original character. I can't see how anyone can disagree with my stance. However, I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you, so let's just agree to disagree.

You started the thread, so implying that I'm wasting your time is not going to win any sympathy here. You obviously wanted my input, or you wouldn't have posted.

Edited by SimDing0, 20 August 2004 - 11:47 AM.

[Longinus]

Longinus, you argue that one should not change the official charter crated by the Bioware to something she's not. Yet you said that writing a friendship path would be alright. As you know, in the official version of Biware's Viconia a friendship is not an option for either male of female PC. Is there something in the game that in your opinion would suggest that she would make friends with the PC under any circumstances?

I say that it's a bigger change in her character to allow her to be a friend with the PC than it is to change (or expand) the target of her romantic affection. It is a relatively small and unimportant change after all, not really requiring changes in her personality. This being my humble opinion of course.

I think a friendship would be far more believable than Viconia suddenly finding herself attracted to other women after years and years of exploring her sexual desires. If she was sexually or romantically attracted to women she would've expressed interest in them long before now. Also, this myth circulating the modding community that the vast majority of Drow are bisexual is exactly that: a myth. The myth in question probably stems from an individual's perception of the Drow, as no source material will corroborate it.

I support modders who do their best to keep their mods consistent with established canon, or as consistent as possible. This mod, unfortunately, can make no such claim.

[Longinus]

If there's no evidence that Viconia being bisexual is either in- or out-of-character, then extending her character to make her bisexual falls into the former category. And I say again: it is not mischaracterisation, it is an extension. Calling it a "lie" is wishful thinking because you've got nothing with which to disprove it.

You started the thread, so implying that I'm wasting your time is not going to win any sympathy here.

Fine, continue to be hostile towards me then. Treat me as a blight on the community. I never realised that liberalism was so infectious.

As for your point, you're simply going back to the "if there's no proof that she isn't bisexual, then she could/must be bisexual" argument. Sorry man, but the burden of proof is on you. If you want to claim or want us to believe that the Viconia we all know and love is bisexual, then it's your job to prove it. Plain and simple. We could claim almost anything about her if there's nothing to disprove it. That is the most ridiculous reasoning I have ever had the displeasure of encountering.

I've made my case. You can keep deluding yourself into believing that Viconia is bisexual for whatever reason. Face facts: she isn't bisexual. Nothing in the game can lead us to that conclusion. Therefore, the conclusion that she is or might be bisexual is a complete non sequitur.

Edited by Longinus, 20 August 2004 - 12:03 PM.

[SimDing0]

As for your point, you're simply going back to the "if there's no proof that she isn't bisexual, then she must be bisexual" argument.

No, I never said that, so don't try to pretend I did. I said that if there's no proof, then it's not mischaracterisation for a mod author to write her as bisexual, because there's no evidence to contradict it.

Sorry man, but the burden of proof is on you. If you want to claim or want us to believe that the Viconia we all know and love is bisexual, then you have to prove it. Plain and simple.

No, I don't have to prove she's bisexual. See pretty much everything I've said throughout the thread. Re-read it a few times if you STILL want to believe that I'm claiming she is.

We could claim almost anything about her if there's nothing to disprove it.

You're right. And that'd be fine, if it made sense in the game.

That is the most ridiculous reasoning I have ever had the displeasure of encountering.

On the contrary, it's perfectly acceptable for a mod author.

I've made my case. You can keep deluding yourself into believing that Viconia is bisexual for whatever reason. Face facts: she isn't bisexual. Nothing in the game can lead us to that conclusion. Therefore, the conclusion that she is or might be is a complete non sequitor.

Sorry, please prove to me that she is not bisexual. I haven't seen any solid PROOF either way. Until then, you're not kidding anybody by using phrases such as "deluding yourself" and "face facts". Maybe you should face the fact that there's no evidence either way.
And I've never said I believe Viconia is bisexual, nor that I don't. If you can't address what I've said without adjusting it to suit your needs, maybe you shouldn't post any more. Or I can start interpreting every single post of yours as meaning "I HATE FAGZ", because that's on a par with your claims as far as accuracy is concerned.

You have once more selectively ignored Domi's point. Out of arguments?

Edited by SimDing0, 20 August 2004 - 12:10 PM.

[Longinus]

You have once more selectively ignored Domi's point. Out of arguments?

I've made my case -- nothing short of Viconia's original writer stating that she was never intended to be anything other than heterosexual will convince you she is heterosexual. I dare say even then this mod would go ahead as planned.

Viconia's original writer is the only person who has any right to *officially* expand her original character, or make *official* changes. That's the perogative of whoever invented her. Domi's point is therefore moot. Adding a homosexual facet to Viconia's character isn't a believable expansion of her character no matter how well-written it may be.

By your logic everyone in the game is potentially bisexual simply because there's nothing in the game to prove otherwise. You could make any number of claims without any evidence to support it. That's inane reasoning by any measure.

All the evidence in the game points to Viconia being heterosexual. There is no evidence indicating she's bisexual (nothing). Now you expect us to believe that she is in fact bisexual? What a joke. The truth is the official Viconia is heterosexual -- nothing points to anything else.

Believe what you want. I shall be the first to point out that this mod is *unofficial* to anyone who believes it is an accurate portrayal of her character.

Also, just because I don't approve of this mod doesn't mean I'm a bigot. Victimize someone who deserves it.

Edited by Longinus, 20 August 2004 - 12:40 PM.

[SimDing0]

I've made my case -- nothing short of Viconia's original writer stating that she was never intended to be anything other than heterosexual will convince you she is heterosexual.

This is not difficult. Look:

Never in this thread have I said that I think Viconia is bisexual.

Viconia's original writer is the only person who has any right to *officially* expand her original character, or make *official* changes. That's the perogative of whoever invented her. Domi's point is therefore moot. Adding a homosexual facet to Viconia's character isn't a believable expansion of her character no matter how well-written it may be.

By your logic, any mod is unbelievable. The very concept of mods relies on adding something that's not already there, and providing it doesn't contradict existing content, that's okay. Now, I will turn on caps lock to clarify: THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST VICONIA IS BISEXUAL. HOWEVER, MAKING HER SO DOES NOT CONTRADICT ANYTHING ELSE WE SEE INGAME. THEREFORE, THERE IS NO REASON A MODMAKER SHOULD NOT DO SO.

By your logic everyone in the game is potentially bisexual simply because there's nothing in the game to prove otherwise.

If someone chooses to write them as such, yes.

All the evidence in the game points to Viconia being heterosexual. There is no evidence indicating she's bisexual (nothing). Now you expect us to believe that she is in fact bisexual?

List the evidence please. Solid evidence, not roundabout "there's nothing that says she isn't" or any other such short-cuts.

What a joke.

I take it you're currently unaware of your status as one of the running jokes in the community then?

Believe what you want. I shall be the first to point out that this mod is *unofficial* to anyone who believes it is an accurate portrayal of her character.

See large text above.

Also, just because I don't approve of this mod doesn't mean I'm a bigot. Victimize someone who deserves it.

Who would you suggest? A passing homosexual?

Edited by SimDing0, 20 August 2004 - 01:01 PM.

[SimDing0]

In the The Book of Erotic Fantasy, review of which can be found at http://www.somethingawful.com/, it is stated that "all elves are bisexual".

No, I'm not seriously putting that forward as an argument. But I encourage everyone to read the review because it's so funny.

[Avenger_teambg]

Viconia's original writer is the only person who has any right to *officially* expand her original character, or make *official* changes. That's the perogative of whoever invented her. Domi's point is therefore moot. Adding a homosexual facet to Viconia's character isn't a believable expansion of her character no matter how well-written it may be.

By your logic, any mod is unbelievable. The very concept of mods relies on adding something that's not already there, and providing it doesn't contradict existing content, that's okay. Now, I will turn on caps lock to clarify: THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST VICONIA IS BISEXUAL. HOWEVER, MAKING HER SO DOES NOT CONTRADICT ANYTHING ELSE WE SEE INGAME. THEREFORE, THERE IS NO REASON A MODMAKER SHOULD NOT DO SO.

Actually, you are right.
No one should make these pathetic NPC mods.
And there is a good reason 'not to do so', that is good taste.