105 replies to this topic

[Littiz]

The dictionary defines homophobia as, to paraphrase, "the fear or contempt of homosexuals and behaviour based on such a feeling". You don't have to be afraid to be a homophobe.

This is a clear case where the authors of a dictionary, who aren't gods, bend (with far too little resistance if you ask me), to the misuse people always do of terms (ok, this is how languages change/"evolve").
Phobia is the greek word for "fear", and it has been used for ages as a suffix to indicate pathologic fears of various kind.
Actually that "mistake" in the dictionary is more the attempt of linguists (and people misusing that word) to impress their own judgment upon the ones who don't like homosexuality, by attaching to them a pathology, or simply, a word that doesn't sound too good.

Anyway.
I also think that Viconia clearly isn't a homosexual, so that part of the mod would seem a great forcing of the character to me.
I understand what Longinus is trying to say. Actually I don't like romances on a general basis, and the community seems a bit too focused on romances and "sexuality" issues.
At this point, I think I'd remove them all to play a good, old, fantasy heroic game without stuff that seems somewhat out of context.

Yet I'd really like to try and play the "friendship" part, if the mod gets completed, and if the two parts are kept "somewhat" separated.
An expansion of the character is truly welcomed, I mean.

[Grim Squeaker]

Believe me to get the romance you'd have to TRY for it. It won't happen by accident. There are different variables for being a good friend to her and flirting with her. And if you do show romantic interest in her, you can turn her down at the 'decision point' and keep the friendship without a romance.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 19 August 2004 - 06:05 AM.

[Plasmocat]

There's no point in arguing anymore, as nearly everyone is convinced that Viconia is in fact bisexual and that straight women don't actually exist. In the light of this blind and unquestioning acceptance it would almost be pointless to continue.

I think we can safely add Viconia to the list of official characters ruined by a modder's wanton desire to recreate those characters in their own image.

Def. of Straw Man in rhetorical use:

The straw-man rhetorical technique (sometimes called straw person) is the practice of refuting weaker arguments than your opponents actually offer. It is not a logical fallacy to disprove a weak argument. Rather, this fallacy lies in declaring one argument's conclusion to be wrong because of flaws in another argument.

One can set up a straw man in several different ways:

*Present only a portion of your opponent's arguments (often a weak one), refute it, and pretend that you have refuted all of their arguments.

*Present your opponent's argument in weakened form, refute it, and pretend that you have refuted the original.

*Present a misrepresentation of your opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that you have refuted your opponent's actual position.

*Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute their arguments, and pretend that you've refuted every argument for that position.

*Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticised, and pretend that that person represents a group that the speaker is critical of.

(From WordIQ Dictionary)

I don't think anyone needs waste their time bothering to reply to the "you are all pornographers & gay women! Shame on you!" argument because this dude isn't listening. He can't afford to, because he doesn't have an argument strong enough to refute the the real issues.

Longinus, I've said before & I repeat. If your argument was completely based on moral standards you'd be complaining about explicitly written heterosexual stories on the basis that they were written to fulfill the sexual fantasies of the modders & players who like them.

But this hasn't got any place in your argument, does it? it's not about sex, if you're honest with us and with yourself. It's about sexual preference.

Either that, or perhaps it's the fact that thinking of Viconia as a bisexual or lesbian woman intrudes upon your own ability to think of her in terms of emotional or sexual gratification. Lots of ppl feel this way. That's why many celebrities don't come out with their sexual orientation unless/until they have to, so it's not that you'd be unusual in that respect.

Edited by Plasmocat, 19 August 2004 - 06:33 AM.

[Longinus]

Why didn't you post this at G3?

I probably should have, but I'm used to the community here. Besides, I'd probably find more support for the mod at its point of origin. I might be tempted to post there sooner or later, though I doubt that anything short of the hand of God will stop the creation of this mod now that it has gained momentum.

[Longinus]

...my argument has never touched on the idea of Bioware Viconia being bisexual. I don't know or care if she was intended to be.

So if the official Viconia isn't bisexual, then how can anyone justify making her bisexual?

[SimDing0]

So if the official Viconia isn't bisexual, then how can anyone justify making her bisexual?

Last time I checked, nobody needed to justify anything to you. They need to justify it within the game context, and that's done by altering her character.

[Longinus]

...because he doesn't have an argument strong enough to refute the the real issues.

I don't need to refute anything. Judging from your post though, it seems as if you're doing everything in your power portray me as the embodiment of intolerance when I am far from it.

From everything we know about Viconia, she has no desire to sleep with other women. Can *you* refute that? No, I didn't think so.

I don't want Viconia to become something she was never meant to be (bisexual). That's all. Why is that so impossible to believe? Why must you vilify me for it?

[Plasmocat]

Why is it a shame, or sad to think of any character Viconia, Anomen, Nalia, or Minse (just throwing out examples) is bisexual or gay. It would break your heart? Why? Because it would mean you wouldn't feel comfortable romancing her even in the hetero mod?

*How* does sexual preference degrade any character?

Truly, it's ok if this mod doesn't appeal to any given person. But no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to force them to download it, or play it, or even to read threads about it.

There's no reason why this should be a big deal considering that it's easy to avoid having anything to do with this mod if you so wish.

I have to say, though ... now I'm tempted to give myself a quick course in coding so I can mod a "Girls will be Boys and Boys will be Girls" mod.

I'd love to see Anomen toss on a feather boa and give in to being the big ol' drama queen he really is. :lol

[Longinus]

My point is that Viconia is sure of her sexuality, if she was anything other than hetero then it would be shown, but it's not, so it saddens me greatly that this mod would even be thought of, and would break my heart to see so many people believing her to be something that she isn't.

I know how you feel. Like I wrote before, the tragedy is people will start believing this mod is a true representation of Viconia's character when nothing could be further from the truth.

[Longinus]

Last time I checked, nobody needed to justify anything to you. They need to justify it within the game context, and that's done by altering her character.

If the creators want us to believe that this mod is a believable extension of Viconia's character, then of course they need to justify it, which as far as I can tell cannot be done.

If modders want Viconia to be bisexual for no other reason than that, then at least they are being honest. Saying that this mod is true to Viconia's character is laughable in the eyes of all but the people who want to believe she is bisexual.

Edited by Longinus, 19 August 2004 - 07:46 AM.

[Plasmocat]

I don't want Viconia to become something she was never meant to be (bisexual). That's all. Why is that so impossible to believe? Why must you vilify me for it?

I'm not vilifying you. If that's happening, you're doing that to yourself.

You don't know whether Viconia could or should be of one sexual preference or another. To argue that she can only be hetero because she was written that way would also be to argue that modders ruin any addition they write because it's not in the orginal story. It would be to argue that any mod written giving hetero females the choice to romance any existing character is also wrong because no one but Anomen showed interest in the female <charname>

Since you have expressed approval for other kinds of mods, I think it's been pretty well established that you couldn't logically make this argument.

It's not impossible for me to believe that you don't want Viconia to be a bisexual or a lesbian. I don't need a piano to fall on my head. Everyone gets that.

What ppl are trying to tell you is that we object to you trying to force your morality and/or your mentality on us when it is completely unnecessary for you to do so.

You don't have to download the mod, and you don't have to play it. You don't have to read the threads about it, and you most certainly don't have to start threads about it.

You have allowed yourself to get righteously indignant about an issue which you didn't have to get all offended about to start with. You chose not to ignore the mod. You can't then complain when ppl respond negatively to your attempts to shove your opinion down their throats.

*That* is what I mean when I say that if you are being villified at all, it's something you're doing to yourself and completely voluntarily.

[Longinus]

Why is it a shame, or sad to think of any character Viconia, Anomen, Nalia, or Minse (just throwing out examples) is bisexual or gay. It would break your heart? Why? Because it would mean you wouldn't feel comfortable romancing her even in the hetero mod?

If those characters were bisexual (for example), I wouldn't have a real problem with them. The problem is from everything we know about Viconia she isn't. This mod aims to explore a non-existent side of her character, which is something I don't find acceptable.

This mod is a lie.

[SimDing0]

If the creators want us to believe that this mod is a believable extension of Viconia's character, then of course they need to justify it, which as far as I can tell cannot be done.

If the mod says it intends to stay true to Bioware's character, then you're quite right, it probably does need to be backed up with character evidence. However, does it say this?

[SimDing0]

If those characters were bisexual (for example), I wouldn't have a real problem with them. The problem is from everything we know about Viconia she isn't. This mod aims to explore a non-existent side of her character, which is something I don't find acceptable.

This mod is a lie.

I suggest you solidify your argument before you claim anything is a "lie", since you contradict yourself merely a paragraph above.

"The problem is from everything we know about Viconia she isn't." implies that the mod is altering Viconia's character.

"This mod aims to explore a non-existent side of her character" implies that the mod is expanding it.

[Meira]

My to cents

Longinus, you argue that one should not change the official charter crated by the Bioware to something she's not. Yet you said that writing a friendship path would be alright. As you know, in the official version of Biware's Viconia a friendship is not an option for either male of female PC. Is there something in the game that in your opinion would suggest that she would make friends with the PC under any circumstances?

I say that it's a bigger change in her character to allow her to be a friend with the PC than it is to change (or expand) the target of her romantic affection. It is a relatively small and unimportant change after all, not really requiring changes in her personality. This being my humble opinion of course.

[Plasmocat]

She tries to insinuate that Valygar is gay ... but also tries to insinuate that he's undesirable to other women. That doesn't indicate that she prefer one gender or another. That just indicates that she's not above trying to push whatever buttons a person will let her push. In other words, it just means she's a jerk.

And you know, gays & lesbians can be jerks just like straight ppl can.

If I call a woman a slut because she likes to sleep around with more men than I find acceptable, does that make me a lesbian? If I call a woman a slut because she likes to sleep around with more women than I find acceptable, does that make me a straight?